Our most anticipated episode (to date) has arrived! Join us in celebrating the 10th year anniversary of Christopher Nolan's The Dark Knight Rises with:
- A super detailed final scene break down (was it all a dream or not?)
- Your most controversial trilogy hot takes
- Some epic debates: Joker or Bane? Christian Bale or Robert Pattinson? and much more
Also listen in to hear about Sophie's latest experiment (quitting most streaming services), Ben's hate-watching habits and Simon's latest hangover film fave.
If you liked this episode, take a second to share it on your social channels, along with YOUR favorite hot take from the episode ;)
Films overheard in this episode: Executive Decision, Predator, Risky Business, The Scanner Darkly, Exodus: Gods and Kings, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises, Inception, American Psycho
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Sophie: Well, hello or welcome back. You're listening to the THAT FINAL SCENE podcast. My name is Sophie and I'm joined by my two co-hosts Ben in Simon.
And today we're gonna be talking about the ending of a film that. It's kind of iconic. It also sees its 10th anniversary. It's called THE DARK KNIGHT RISES.
Ben: not THE DARK KNIGHT as Simon found out when he went to watch it, we need to get
Sophie: a back story.
Ben: I think I will give Simon the benefit of that, because I think it's quite confusing because in the WhatsApp group, we were just using like the initials.
So if we'd been saying maybe the dark night and the dark night
Sophie: rises, it would, that's true. And someone was like, what the F
Ben: is this, if I didn't want to say it, when you posted the screenshot, I was kind of. That kind of looks like the opening, the bank heist and dark night, but I'm not gonna say anything just
Simon: in case I'm wrong.
Well, I was watching it. I looked so how long it. and I noticed my film didn't match the duration of what was on Google and then I remember the plane sequence should be at the beginning. I was like, there's no plane sequence. Oh dear. What film? I actually
Ben: [00:01:00] watching it's a pirate version of it had all the, the
It had the joker, right? Batman. It had Batman ASEs. Yeah. There some naughty batteries. It was all looked legit.
Sophie: Haven't seen the dark night in. A minute. I have to say,
Ben: I feel like I've rewatched it in the last year. Maybe I think I might have watched it in the run up to seeing the new Batman movie. Mm-hmm I think I watched it like around January time before the Matt Reeves one came out.
Simon: Mm there's. A lot of Christian BA. Silly voice. Isn't it
Ben: silly? You don't like his gravity Batman voice?
Sophie: Yeah. Isn't the Batman though. Hmm. Isn't that Batman by default though. Doesn't he have like a silly voice by default? What was
Simon: he like before this series?
Ben: Depends. I mean, there's a couple of iterations.
There's kid. There's Keaton. There's Clooney. There's Kilmer. You've got a lot there. Val, kill the Patson. Yeah,
Simon: really? You didn't know,
Ben: dude. Who have you not seen the Val Kilmer one. What might have done Val Kilmer is the, is he the Arnold Schwarzenegger one or. Yeah. So Arnold Schwarzenegger plays Mr. Freeze.
Oh, Simon. This is like UL. [00:02:00] Yeah. This is like nineties camp. It is hilarious. You should watch. How did you I'm surpris? You haven't seen that. Is it? Who's who's the other one? Cuz there's two baddies in that one. Is it Tommy Lee? Jones's two face in that. No. Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carey are the Jim cares in it.
Yeah. So's not the same one in the George Clooney one. You have Tommy Lee Jones's two face and Jim Carey is the Ribler and then. Is it UMO. Thurman is poison Ivy and awar is Dr. Freeze, I think.
Sophie: Yeah, but that's in the Val film. Yeah.
Ben: Yeah. It's a different, yeah, maybe I'm mixing them up, but yeah, it's fantastic.
The George Clooney one is the first time Batman ever had nipples on his suit. which George Clooney is always apologizing for an interviews, which is quite funny. He has deeply regretted that role. Okay. Yeah.
Simon: I got to about an hour and a half in looked up the time. Cause like it should be finished by now.
And then I realized I was only halfway through and it was
Sophie: the wrong film. You got a lot of support in the social. So I
Ben: mean, admittedly, it's the better film. Speaking
Sophie: of hot takes and controversial. Opinion's hot take. It's not a, no, it's not a hot
Simon: [00:03:00] take. What, what I just, what is a hot take?
Ben: I don't even know what it's.
I dunno like an it's controversial, controversial
Sophie: opinion, unpopular opinion. That's the gen Z lingo that we're trying, man. That's the
Ben: gen Z lingo of the audience we're trying to tap into
Sophie: tap into. So yeah, to, to be honest, like Ben's opinion on the dark Knight is not. Hot take it's more like a, no, it's a it's AED.
It's popular. It's a popular take. Okay.
Simon: It's a popular take. So that's the TDK. Most people think TDK is better than
Sophie: TDK. R it's a superior film from a trilogy. That's the common
Ben: perception. Oh, the tri and actually I know some people who would consider rises to be the, well, yeah, we'll, we'll call it right.
Bakery. Yeah. he has reason. Well, he would consider that to be the. The worst. Well, not the worst is bad is, is the worst is the wrong word to use, but of the three films it's would be third and
Sophie: the games would be second. We've heard we heard it all on Instagram because we actually got a lot of positive feedback from people that, uh, they, you know, whoever is listening at home, they really [00:04:00] enjoying our hot take.
So, okay. We thought it would be a good opportunity to do, I'm gonna say it again, a whole take segment, uh, for, for you to say
Ben: really rude things.
Sophie: Yeah. No. But for the dark night, TWI in particular, have people speak up their mind and say whatever they want. And we asked people yesterday and people delivered.
So we're gonna go through them, uh, in a bit that's part of our community segment. But yeah, that's an opinion that the DocLine arises is the worst film. But I also heard that quite a few people say that button one begins is actually. So there's a spectrum of hot takes out there. So looking forward to going through this with you in a second, but before doing that, what have you guys been watching after
Simon: we up?
Sophie: Yeah. At the weekend. That was Saturday day. Yeah.
Simon: Oh, I had a hangover day on Sunday. Love it. And so therefore, a risky business. Nope. I loaded up the [00:05:00] Netflix and the first thing that caught my. Was a film called executive decision, Steven Segal and Kurt Russell. Is
Sophie: that your homepage algorithm
Simon: survey? It's I, I might have typed it in actually, to be honest I can't
Ben: remember what we should do is we should look through all three of our suggestions film.
Oh, that's a good idea, Netflix, to see what our algorithms are showing enough
Simon: anyway, interest. Olive who's my daughter, who's three was in the room and in the first scene started crying, cuz it's like quite scary. So I turned it off and then see
Ben: how, I mean, Steven Segal walks on
Simon: screen. That's scary. That's it?
No, the fighter jet is like underneath the 7 47 plane and they have this pipe that goes up so like Steven Segal and his team can break into the. Main plane to save. Everyone's
Ben: much like the start of the dark night
Simon: rising it's there's parallels and Steven cigar, which is really unusual for him. Cause I'm sure he has it written to his contract that he can never be killed, gets sucked out of the pipe, cuz it like loses his ion.
Like so Steven cigars [00:06:00] killed off really early on in this film. And then olive
Ben: was like drew, drew, Barry Moore scream, everybody shocked and Stevens and gals did. I was shook.
Simon: So we had to turn it off and then watch Beethoven too. Solid
Ben: which was horrific. Yeah. Solid, maybe better, big dog.
Sophie: And did that help with your hangover?
Did it make it worse?
Simon: I fell asleep for most of it. so that one helps I woke up and then they're having a, a burger eating competition and then, uh,
Ben: something else I, I remember. Yeah. Sounds good
Simon: to me. So that's why I've been watching Ben, what have you been watching?
Ben: Tell me I've been watching. I've been watching quite a lot.
Um, mm-hmm so. Uh, I, for some ridiculous reason, I'm still persisting with halo and that's persisting to be the most boring show I've ever watched in on. Why are you watching it? Oh my dude. I'm just skipping through it at this stage. I's literally like scrolling head of thing. I am watching
Simon: you feel pop committed.
Ben: Cause you got so far. I'm eight episodes in there's three lefts. I have to finish it. I'm just like, I just, I was that break bag break, breaking bag. Breaking
Sophie: [00:07:00] bags. Great though. It didn't keep getting worse though.
Ben: Breaking bag it's level. Halo has just. Consistently more dull. Wow. Like zero to no interesting plot.
Zero to no interesting performances. It's just getting weirder and weirder and it's just, yeah, just not really enjoying it. Then I watched just a couple of random movies. This, this week I watched predator on. Friday night. Cause I was just lying in bed flicking through Disney plus and pre is coming out this weekend.
Actually praise is coming out on Friday and I wanna watch that. So I was like, yeah, fuck it. I'm gonna watch the original predator. And I love a bit of Arnie mm-hmm , you know, one of his best performances I think in predator is it's just so kind I mean, for, for a movie that's really like a solid, you know, alien action movie.
It. Classic camp army. And then I watched Laman 66. Oh yeah, yeah.
Sophie: With my
Ben: daily, for which is called for V Ferrari in the states for our us insurance, which is, I think is really interesting that I went to like, it's completely different name. Yeah. So I was, I was looking into this, there's a lot of films that will have different names depending on the territories they're release in.
So [00:08:00] it's called Ford V Ferrari in America because it sounds more like aggressive and it's marketable and it's really marketable. And in the UK, it's called Lamont 66 because it's a build up to the race in 60. And it's really nice because you can see how Ford V Ferrari is an interesting title, but actually the film is a really nice kind of untold story about Christian Bale's character that everybody knows the story of Matt Damon's car character, like Carl Shelby.
Own Shelby motors and help them design the car. But what a lot of people don't know about was the guy who drove the car, who is Christian bale. That's quite interesting. I actually quite enjoyed it. I do like a good like racing film. Like I really like rush and stuff like that. I really like that film.
Yeah. Rush is really good. The soundtrack is good as well. Yeah, it's fantastic. I think we talked about this with you and Gregor like C Bale's got just a solid bar that he doesn't really drop under, I think.
Sophie: And I think besides how was that awful film that he did? In Egypt.
Ben: Oh my God. I can't remember
Sophie: the cultural appropriation of that film.
Simon: why, what happens? It's
Sophie: yeah. It's it's Shak. It's it's dreads. It's a white
Ben: [00:09:00] savior. It's it's a white Australian guy and a white wel guy playing two Egyptians. It's as bad as you think it's gonna be what's the accent oh, that's I don't even think they do really, you know, it's just them being like dark and brooding and talking like, you know, kind of.
so, yeah, I've been watching quite a lot. What about you? Okay, so
Sophie: I have bit of an announcement. Wait, should
Simon: I do
Ben: another beer?
Sophie: No, I think I, I think I told you Simon, so I am going through this experiment where I am. I have quite most of, uh, streaming services. As of right now, I have quit Netflix, apple TV, plus.
Now TV, which for our non UK listeners, that's the equivalent of HBO. Max kind of has the HBO originals and Showtime and sky stuff. Sophie
Ben: do, we do a movie podcast and you're about to tell us you have experiment and you're not watching movies anymore. So, okay. So, so it's gonna be really hard to sell.
Sophie: a twist. I had to keep prime [00:10:00] video because I have prepaid for the entire year, so, okay. Bank, Amazon. I didn't wanna obsess over it. I just wanted to use an experiment. Just be like, what is life without streaming services? Because I still have my local cinema next door that I could go to, because I think we had this discussion in our last episode, when you were mentioning you were going to the gym and I wanted to just.
Simon: the cinematic version of going vegan
Sophie: super free. I think that would be a better description because 80% of the stuff that Netflix pumps out right now, it's trash. I mean, I know that I'm going to go back to them eventually, but I do think that it's much more effective to just almost have them on the rotation.
Right. So if you wanna with something, then you could just resubscribe. But why? Like I realized that I hadn't seen anything on Netflix other than better in ages. And I was like, why should I pay the, you know, 15 pound? What, whatever it is at this point. And yeah, if when the new [00:11:00] stranger things comes out or whatever, like I might just go back to it.
I just don't see the value of it. And I looking back, I realized that. After work instead of, you know, going to my local cinema, watching something a bit more like higher quality. Yeah. I know that I'm gonna be just because I literally have a podcast on films and you know, like episode presence on films, but cinema is around the door.
I have prime. And you can just use, so buy one off film and I can rent and I can rent. I can buy. Yeah, like it's more
Ben: intentional. Wait, I already do
Simon: this. I'm already this pure.
Sophie: I aspire to be like, you you're downloading
Ben: the wrong videos every week at a high price. That's your problem?
Sophie: uh, that said I do have a recommendation, which is from prime.
It only has two seasons and it just flew under the radar for me. It's called undo. Have you heard of it? Oh yes,
Ben: I have heard of it. Yeah.
Sophie: So it's um, it has two seasons it's with Rosa Salazar. She's the girl that did Anita. What I wanna say, James Cameron film. She's [00:12:00] really good. Her dad is Bob Oden. Kerick from better soul.
He's fantastic. And what's unique about the show that it's, that it uses, uh, A rotoscoping. Is that Aero? Rotoscope?
Simon: Yeah. The cutting out method. It's
Sophie: very expensive. It's a very expensive method. Mm. If you seen the scanner darkly, I wanna say the scanner darkly. Yeah. Yes. That's the same method,
Simon: but we're not gonna say method acting cause that's not allowed.
Sophie: No, no, no. But ke res actually really good. That
Ben: sound can's great in every. Apart
Simon: from, well, actually
Ben: the lake house actually comes. Yeah. Well, that's what I'm saying. That's not true. That's, that's definitely not true. I love Kiana, but my God, that's not true
Sophie: film. It's actually very recommendation for this episode because we're talking about Nolan obviously.
And if you like inception or interstellar, you're gonna love this show because like a sci-fi mind bending kind of film where the idea. so, uh, Rosa plays almost like a 28 year old girl. Think she's in Texas. And after recovering from a car [00:13:00] accident, she's convinced that she can communicate with the spirit of your dead dad.
That is Bob. Denki kind. It sounds like
Ben: frequency with Dennis Quaid. Oh
Sophie: yeah. I can some inspiration from that. That's a good show, basically that, I mean, that's the premise of season one where we see here, visit here past, see, uncover some truths as it doesn't want to uncover. There's a bit of. Is he, is he coming up with those ideas or are these things actually happening?
Does he actually have superpowers or is it just mentally ill? Has that kind of dream or reality kind of, uh, existential question and yeah, it just talks, I don't know if that's about mental illness and intergenerational trauma as well. It's like very, very well done. So yeah, just two seasons, I think eight episodes each.
So it's very easy to, oh, that's what was it?
Ben: What's it on?
Sophie: Okay. Do what? Just really, really good, like very, yeah. Underrated
Ben: show primer, just pushing money into everything that new Lord of the ring show looks like. It's Christ. I mean, it [00:14:00] already is. That's been the works for like a decade years now. Yeah.
We're finally getting it next month. Start September. I hope it's worth it. Oh God. So do I hope it's worth it? Yeah. So do I just for the terrible fake Irish accents in it, but oh,
Simon: I'm already looking forward to never watching it. Have you seen lot of the
Ben: rings and. Oh, well, that's been a final scene that we have to you.
Haven't seen Lord of the rings. My God was, this is a movie. No, no, I liked it. No, can I say something? No, I don't get it. What don't you get about
Sophie: it? So we ask you to serve us with your SPST, uh, hots about you could serve Christopher Nolans the duck Knight trilogy, and as always you all delivered. So let's get right into.
I can start with some of my faves. The problem I have with Nolan's dark Knight trilogy is that Batman is just too cop friendly. The only cop he should be working with is Jim Gordon. A true Batman is an Antico Batman. Like Paton's also Christian bales, Batman and Bruce Wayne doesn't really have much of a presence.
He's boring is the [00:15:00] other characters who are trying so hard to make him look interesting. So two different hot takes.
Ben: I mean, is
Simon: he, he too cop friendly is my question. I know,
Ben: I know dark she's being
Sophie: more cop friendly than Patons. Yes.
Ben: Yeah. But pats is Patons is an intentional leaning into, we're gonna make Batman as dark as humanly possible.
Yes, I think it's. And this is the interesting thing about Batman is that there's been a lot of different interpretations of what? So like from Tim Burton's Michael Keaton ones to the Val Kilmer ones to Christopher Ren Olands to the animated series, to the latest. Batman's been open to a lot of different interpretations and I think Nolan's one is.
just kind of more of that there isn't. I mean, yeah, of course he has a lot of interaction with Gordon.
Sophie: He has a lot of interaction with Don Blake as well, which it's a bit of like a stress. Well, think for a film, that's trying to make an argument about class divide. Yeah. And revolution. He's probably being a
Ben: bit too.
And that's, I have issues with the jam, like character anyway, because. [00:16:00] Like, I think Joseph Gordon 11 was great, but having him in that film, just so you can set up one line from someone at the end, that possibly means in future, we could get a movie where he plays Robin.
Sophie: I don't think that was intention,
Ben: even just to have it though, like, what's the point, like, what's the point of even having that in there, you know, just as you say, fan service and stuff like that, which actually this film does quite a lot of like does a lot of fan servicey stuff.
I dunno if he's yeah, I think it's just, I think this is just Nolan's interpretation of Batman in the world at the time. It's interesting to look at the Batman movies in like what the world was like when they came out. Yeah. And like, are they a reflection of, you know, what Batman needed to be at that kind of
Mm-hmm what do you think about Christian? Be's Batman being boring. He's very wholesome. Isn't he? In, in terms of what you envision for Batman to be general.
Simon: they're trying really, really hard to portray him as the ultimate doo hero and he's willing to sacrifice everything even
Ben: himself. I think dark night's better at not [00:17:00] doing that because the whole point of dark night is the idea that you have to overcome those morals or do you have to do that?
And that's a more interesting kind of psychological look at it, but in this one, it's definitely more so like, you know, the dark night riding in and saving the day. I think it's an interesting one. it's a very, I think in most Batman movies, the person is either really good at being Bruce Wayne and not very good at being Batman or very good at being Batman and not being very good at being Bruce Wayne.
I think Christian bale kind of strikes a balance at both in that he's not necessarily the greatest Batman in the world, but he kind of balances that out a bit with being maybe a little bit of a better
Sophie: Wayne moving. The third film was the weakest of the trilogy, even though it has the best beginning in my agree, I made
Simon: intros insane.
Ben: I love the, I love the opening. The intro is fantastic and I think there's a lot of great set pieces in it as well. It's hard to say it's the worst to think worst is too strong. A word. I definitely think it's possibly the weakest of the three or maybe even on par with Batman begins. I think there's probably merits to both.
I don't necessarily know if [00:18:00] they outweigh one another in the argument of which is worse. The weakest, I think the fan
Sophie: service doesn't help it. And the biggest thing for me is like, there are so many plot holes in the third one, like in the third one, like the, the, the second one is still my favorite, but I do give the first one, a lot of credit because it's such a good origin story.
When explosions start from the first 10 minutes and with button begins, you don't seem actual fighting until the, you know what, 40 minutes, like an hour in, like, it's just really focusing on setting up the character and Simon to what you said really. trying to get the audience to care about him in the first place I give a lot of credible
Ben: begins for that.
And there's, there's great performances and begins as well. Yeah. Like I think Murphy's great as the scarecrow, so good. And it's Liam, neon's brilliant as Razo good as well. Like they're really, really
Sophie: solid performance. Yeah. Hall's not so good, but it's
Ben: fine. Yeah. Maggie Gillen, Hall's definitely the
Um, it's, he's such a superior. Uh, but yeah, the [00:19:00] third one there, the things that I love, like I love Bain personally. I loved him Hardy. Um, but yeah, like John Blake Talia the new character, just feel,
Ben: I remember, I remember when it came out originally and everybody being like, oh, she's gonna be Talal. And I was kind of like the worst kept secret that this is what it was gonna be.
And it's kind of disappointing because they could have had enough in there to not need to bring that. I understand that they're tying off the trilogy and they're. How do we tie it off? We bring it back to the first one. Mm-hmm and it's an interesting idea, but I mean, they could have just made it that Bain is back to events, the league of shadows and it not have to be Raza go's daughter.
I mean, he does have a daughter, the comic books book doesn't work. He does have a daughter in the comic books, but in the comic books, he's also a mortal. So, I mean, for not, we don't necessarily need to, to go that into the comics. And I remember even thinking initially, like, how are they going to do Bain? I didn't know if he had.
Like that as a bane, as a character, especially with the comic books has had enough to [00:20:00] carry the weight of an entire film, but he does for about what two hours and 20 minutes. It is just, it is bane until we find out like 20 minutes
Sophie: from the end in the third film, everyone was asking for LER, obviously, because massive Batman villain, but Nolan was like, no, He's a bit too similar to the DOR where like, it's more like psychological games.
I want someone with like, like proper physicality, like a beast that can take Batman, like on the ground really. And just play with that, even though I feel like. It kind of that, that slipped on its head because the, for me, the worst thing about the third film is the fight scenes and the choreography hasn't aged well stuff.
Yeah. But what you said earlier is actually the fourth hot take from a listener Bain's mouth voice is cool. Actually, I think the lack of backstory around his mask and persona makes him interesting, almost as iconic as a joker. The reveal that it's me. Tape and not him who got out of the cavern kind of sucks though.
I [00:21:00] mean, if
Ben: they hadn't done the Miranda tapes, which probably could've ended, then this would've helped someone probably ended about 20 minutes earlier. Anyway,
Sophie: um, I had one final. I'll take from our community. And, uh, yeah, I think Simon, you're probably gonna be best to speak to this because you, you was the film yesterday.
So you have an excuse, uh, that scene, the dark night where the joker leaves the bank in a school bus, it looks dumb. the whole high scene was great, but the escape makes no sense. The bus driver right behind him was either blind or was an accomplice, but that was never discussed in the. That was actually the most liked comment.
Simon: that stuck out to me as well, cuz right. All the school buses are just trundling along the road. And then suddenly this school bus like just drives out of nowhere and there's like was outta the side of a building it's like crashes out of a building then manages to sneak into the road and just carry on as normal.
Sophie: that was a very popular plot hole interest.
Ben: I would say that's not really a heart take. That's just a very valid.
Sophie: Cool. And to round, uh, this segment, we got a voice note from a listener. Who's going all in [00:22:00] on his hot take about Banin versus the joker. Hi everyone.
Ben: This is Chris on the topic of the dark night rises.
I've gotta say Banin is a better villain than. Joker while Heath
Sophie: Ledger's performance may be singular
Ben: to the point of overshadowing. Tom Hardy's Bain Bain is just a better foil to Batman. In these films. He is physically stronger. He is smarter. He is more ruthless than the joker and you know, that that voice.
Sophie: Hance my dreams. I know people love comparing villain. I just think they're great in their own respect.
Ben: It that's what I was gonna say. It's hard to compare because ban and the joker are doing two different things to tell two different angles of Batman. Yeah. Like the Joker's story is about Batman's morality and what he's willing to do, Bain's story is about how he can push himself.
Like it's a very, it's, it's a very [00:23:00] different Villa. I also think to say Bain is more ruthless than the joker is probably not true. Yeah. I think he, I think Bain just dials it up to 11 because he has the nuclear bomb. I mean, the joker is willing to blow up a boatload of civilians and he has ear joke. I mean, kills a due to the pencil.
Like, you know, I, I think it's, I think it's, it's not fair to say that BA is more ruthless. I think they're different. And yeah, as you say, I don't know if you can compare
Sophie: the one thing I can, I can definitely say is. The chemistry wasn. Wasn't quite there with bail bail. Spents a lot of time with leather.
Like they have a lot of screen time together while, I mean, bail is Tom Hardy, not as
Ben: much. I think it's also to do with how both have been written in that in the dark night, the jokers obsession is Batman in anyhow, as he says, like you corporational, whereas ban is just mercenary, carrying out an order.
Sophie: So final scene.
Ben: Let's do it. Go look a message
Simon: from our sponsor. GI Jane too. Can't wait to
Ben: see it. Nah, yo, hold up. [00:24:00] Yo, what's up? Y'all got a problem. Y'all want some of this
Sophie: without much further at you. Here we go again. Does it even make sense for me to give out spoiler warning at this point? And we will have spoiler, we spoil the whole Telogy at this point, first of all.
So we kind of tried to wake up the film for everyone. Yeah. Sounds good. Especially the it'll certainly help me the, the end, the end. Yeah. Especially for Simon. So, as you all remember in the end, Batman was able to get control of Gohan back from Bain, though. It was Kaman who actually gave the killing show.
I was spoken about an Hathaway it's it was brilliant in the film, but of course the, the issue was the threat wasn't over that reactor said to explode and decimated. The entire city was somewhere out there. And although Gordon had prevented it from being remotely detonated, it was now Italian's. Batman cat women, Gordon were able to take out the truck, carrying the bomb, but before she died, how destroyed the reactors so that they couldn't put the core back into it for disarming with no other [00:25:00] alternative, Bruce was forced to attach the cord to the bat and fly over the base.
He could detonate away from civilians, but as the aircraft had to be flown manually, we was him seemingly sacrifice himself, saving everyone in his home city in the very last moments of the. We get a final taste of what life had ahead of the main players. We see Gordon continuing his police work, but he's kind of surprised to see the bad signal back at top of the DCP P D rooftop.
I really like that scene. Lucy's Fox discovers that the bat auto pallet issue had been fixed six months prior, seemingly by Bruce Wayne, suggesting that he actually survived the nuclear explosion. John Blake quits the police force. And after being left some caving gear. And I said of coordinates by Bruce.
He goes on his way to find where about cave.
Ben: And we find out that his name is Robin.
Sophie: Was that before or after he takes the baggage?
Ben: Takes the bag. Yeah. You should use your oil name. I [00:26:00] like it. I am ING. And then she just says Robin, as he walks away, it's if they put it, it's like they put it in, in post
Sophie: true. That's true. Uh, as for Alfred at first, we see him crying over Bruce, his death, some great crying acting from Michael Kane in that scene. But he
Ben: blew, he blew the bloody doors off
Sophie: that scene. I really like that scene. Sorry, but at what most people consider to be the final scene, the film cuts to Florence in Italy, but we see him at that cafe that he had mentioned as a fantasy earlier in the film, which goes, I
Ben: had this fantasy that I would look across the tables and I'd see you there.
Wife may be your, a couple of kids. You wouldn't say anything to me nor me to you, but we both know that you'd made it, that you were happy. [00:27:00] Oh, God, I love that scene. I love that
Sophie: scene. This is where he sees Bruce and Celina across from him. They give each other not to one another and they go the separate ways, just like he envisioned, but actually the very final show.
Of the film is, I mean, cuts back to John Blake again, where he discovers the bad cave. That's how the film
Ben: actually ends. Yeah. With the, he, he stands on the platform, it starts to rise outta the water. The other important thing to mention is, is that in the scene where they're giving away the belongings is that someone says one of the lots is missing.
One of the items is missing and it's it's, uh, Bruce Wayne's mother's Pearl necklace, which is what cat woman steals in the opening scene, which she is wearing in the cafe in Florence. Mm.
Sophie: Which probably proves that this wasn't a dream. Well,
Ben: I think, you know, I think is because this dark night rises, is it after inception or is it before
Sophie: dark nine is the same year as inception thousand eight.
Ben: Yeah. And then dark night rises as after 12. Yeah, I think, I think a lot of people having seen the end of inception where it's like, [00:28:00] do they don't they probably are going into think, well, Nolan probably means lots of different things here, but actually there. and nods the fact that the autopilot's been fixed for six months, the neck Pearl necklace has gone.
And she has it. I remember thinking it initially kind of almost wanting it to be that way, wanting it to be like a dream sequence and thinking, oh, is that like, that's the cliff hanger? And we don't know whether he is dead or not, but the, the more I watch it, I'm like no, clearly alive.
Sophie: Yeah. I mean, I am fairly convinced as well that it wasn't a dream and it's a pretty straightforward ending, even though we do have an interview from Chris Abel saying that it wasn't a dream as well, but.
The only reason I would give, I don't know, potentially consider it to be a dream is because how he got out of the, the bat and surviving the explosion is so unrealistic. Like the editing of the film of that scene is kind of weird because. If you remember, we see him in the bat up until the very last [00:29:00] moment before
Ben: he blows up.
Not necessarily. So we, we see him in the bass. Yeah. And then we see a shot of him flying over what looks like a beach. Right. And then it flies out.
Sophie: He's still, he's still human. Like how he needs to be miles away to it. Like how does he survive the explosion?
Ben: Yeah. But it's also could also be just clever editing that we're not seeing him do.
Well, obviously we don't see him bail out, but it's clever editing the way you could it. Okay.
Sophie: And then how does he swing back to the shore with a Batman suit without being seen. By anyone?
Ben: Well, I mean, it's a city where everybody's been enclosed in for six months. I hardly, I hardly think they're all just running
Sophie: to the beach but he, but he needed to make it back to the shore.
Otherwise, how could he make it back to the,
Ben: we don't know. He might, he might have, he might have bailed out over the shore. We don't know that yet. So much
Sophie: going, man. I mean, my explanation that he's, he's Batman. That's all we need to know, but I, yeah,
Simon: this question might be really basic, but I thought in the Italy scene when they're having in the cafe, wouldn't loads of people recognize this billionaire, Bruce Wayne just pottering around.
Sophie: thought that well, but then I was like, how [00:30:00] many people immediately flogged all of his business? Elon Musk is a bit of an acceptance. How many people do know. Warren buffet, buffet
Ben: looks like, say Warren buffet, buffet. buffet. What's his name?
Simon: What's Warren buffet. Oh, sorry. Buffet. I like Warren buffet. I wanna female
Warren's buffet could
Simon: be the restaurant
Sophie: That's the French version of his name.
Ben: Warren's back at home buffet. You have to think of the fact that Bruce Wayne is supposed to have been killed.
Simon: Well, that makes it even weirder. So, so this famous billionaire, I mean, this is probably, you know, news all around the world suddenly is having.
Ben: and yeah, but he he's part he's, he's one of the multitude of people who was killed in Gotham at that time. Okay.
Sophie: He's a us billionaire. Like it's not like the rest of the world wakes up every day. Thinking of how us billionaires look like with exception of people like Elon Musk. I mean, he's an, except what about
Simon: like, imagine if he, he died and I'm like, you were having a coffee in your local square in Italy, and then suddenly
Sophie: bill [00:31:00] popping up. I don't even, I'm not even sure. I would recognize him at this point really. Cause he's gotten old mean he's an exception, but
Simon: also Christian be so hunky.
Ben: He's very nice.
He's at his best. He is. Oh God. Especially at the end with that little, that little bit of long hair. And that's that salmon shirt. How
Simon: many years is it from American psycho to this film? Oh, geez.
Ben: About 12, 13 years. 12. So it's skin on his so
Simon: nine, like, there's that amazing scene in American psycho where he does beauty?
Ben: Does he peels, he peels the skin thing off end and,
Simon: and the skin is in just incredible in that scene, but it looks really similar in Batman. Yeah. How like. Oh, Christina, he's
Ben: chisel. Mm. Chisel. He looks great in all three films. Gotta say, I think it is him at the end. I really like I do. Yeah. And I think, I think there's enough nods towards it.
And I think it's, I think the fact that you do have the autopilot and that it is being like he is alive mm-hmm and I think it would feel very UN Batman for it to be. It's
Sophie: a dream on that dream note. We actually had another [00:32:00] voicemail from a listeners. We played that as well over it. Hi Sophie. This is Seth.
I think that scene at the cafe was actually. Uh, real, the reasons being that, uh, he puts his wallet back in. We see Al is wearing the necklace. Uh, we see, uh, elsewhere that Fox is learning that the autopilot had been already fixed by Bruce Wayne himself. It doesn't matter if he survived or not. What matters is that we get the idea that he has finally said his Batman persona to become.
Bruce again, and that is supported by Robin finding the cave. And Gotham actually has a new savior in Robin and he, the Batman doesn't need to, uh, come
Ben: back. I do think the trilogy as a whole, whether it stands up as good or the worst of the three, even though it's not the best of the three films, I think it ties it together nicely.
Like that final scene. Isn't just the end [00:33:00] of the dark night rises. It is the end. Nolan and bales Batman trilogy as well. And so it is, as Alfred says, it's finally giving him that out. You know, I think what is it when he's he talks? I think in that scene as well, maybe it's just before he says, you know, when you disappeared in, as he talking about Batman begins, all I ever hoped was that you just wouldn't come back because I'd know, you know, you'd be, you.
Done something else you'd have made something of yourself and you wouldn't have come back because that's all, all Alfred has ever wanted over the three films. Since he comes back from, you know, training with the league of shadows. And the first one is he wants an out for him. It's all he ever wants. And because he owes this death to his parents, that's why that scene at the end of him on the grave is so like heart wrenching.
Mm-hmm , mm-hmm , you know, saying that he failed his parents is cuz that's all he's ever been trying to do and protecting him. He, and, you know, letting him almost letting him do the Batman thing. Like letting him be [00:34:00] Batman, but also still trying to find a way out for him. I think has always been the thing.
And actually this trilogy is a nice out, you know, closes the book, you know, he's
Sophie: done is a romantic way to end the film and then we need to remember that Nolan is a romantic, right? If you think of, if you look back at his like inceptions about love Intertel is about, so he's, he's, uh, he's much more emotional as a filmmaker, as we like to, as he kind.
comes across because he has his like major blockbuster films, but he can be very sentimental. And I think that was his way of that was the story he wanted to say, you know, that not
Ben: to bring back the prestige, but I mean the prestige of the two, like really, of course, strong love stories and the prestige
Sophie: as well.
Yeah. Yeah. So I do think that that was his intention and yeah, he's gonna get criticized. I mean, there are people out there that say the ending is too perfect to me to, to fitting. Right. And I mean, fine. There are some people that just love seeing. Batman suffering, right? Like there is that kind of,
Ben: I think too many people just like a cliff hanger as well.
I think that's why people look into it. Is, is, is it a dream? Is it not a dream? Cause I [00:35:00] think too many people want to hang onto the beliefs that there could be something more that it's a dream or, you know,
Sophie: I think this is why he ends with John Blake finding the bat cave. Rather than the scene in Italy, because ultimately the point that he wants to make, as you said, is that okay?
So the Christian bells, Bruce Wayne storyline, that's over, or at least we can let him be right now. That's the idea, but he was never going to be bated forever. Right? The idea is that Batman is a symbol, right? It transcends. Human body in a way it transcends like the yeah. Christian be like whoever the form of Christian BELE.
That's, what's a big contradictory in my opinion, because even though John Blake, we see him say, yeah, my name is Robin at the same time in the very final show, the, the suggestion is that he's going to become the next Batman in a way
Ben: what they should have done is there is, there is an old Batman cartoon called Batman beyond where basically.[00:36:00]
Batman is an old man, this young guy breaks into his house and then it becomes that he becomes Batman back Graham and yeah. Background. Yeah. yeah. Pretty much background. Yeah. It's called Batman beyond. It's really good. They should have done that. It didn't need to be the Robin thing. They, if you wanted to do like a no and fan service, that that was an easier way to do it.
Have it, have it as a nod to him? Yeah, but I thought the Robin thing was just a little bit. a little bit too
Sophie: much. I agree. Yeah. It didn't feel yeah. There other things shouldn't be there or, or, yeah, you're right. They should have introduced someone else. Mm. Because like, even the comics, like it's not like Bruce Wayne was always the Batman.
You had the Grayson and even Tim Gordon was the bat, like was the Batman in a comic book or what's his name? Uh, James something, uh, you know, Jason like words, Jason. Yeah. Jason tar as well. So it's not like Bruce Wayne is tied back to that Batman identity. If
Ben: you go back to Batman begins, one of the things that he talks about when developing the idea of being the Batman is, is that I can't just be a man.
I have to be a symbol.
Sophie: Yes. He says Blake oh person. [00:37:00] And he says, it's John Blake as well. I think early when they are in that. Uh, yeah, you're right. Yeah. Something symbol. No one really liked that idea of I'm just, you know, kind of giving up the suit to someone else. And that's what that, it's very symbolic in a way.
Ben: I have to ask Simon as a superhero movie that you are in inverted commas, cuz it's not the most superhero superhero movies. It's like, it's quite grounded. What did you think of it? Cause I know you're not really, you know, we saw when we talked about Dr. Strange, you weren't kind of mad into that one.
Simon: I thought once I'd seen the dark.
the dark night rises just was like the same again, but with really exciting intro and stuff, mm-hmm the dark night was enough for me to like, understand that it was going a bit dark, a bit grittier, a bit more real.
Ben: It's interesting. Cause it could have ended. Yeah, it could have ended with that end of the dark night where, you know, Harvey dentist's dead and Batman is the quote called villain and my
Simon: hot take would be that it's.
It's a children's cheddar script with quiet, [00:38:00] aggressive violence laid on top for adults.
Ben: Dark night rises or dark night. Both of them. I would, I, I think I would agree with that about rises. I don't necessarily think that the dark night is that way. I think the dark night has a little bit more too B it's very
Simon: like good.
And it's always delineating good and evil very
Ben: clearly. And, but I think that's what the dark night does well in that nuance. The dark night does well and that it takes the line of good and evil. And the whole point of the joker is pushing Batman to find the line. That's why it is different. Yeah. In two faces as well.
Yeah. But can't forget our
Simon: art. Can we, the first time you see the Christopher Oola and Batman is. You can't repeat that once you see that the first time, that's a really amazing moment where you're like, shit, this is really dark and gritty and you can't ever get back to that again. And then everything else just feels like it's the same again.
So the dark night rises just felt like a, another version of,
Sophie: if you look at the toilet, it's a re I love it. I do think, however, that it's massively elevated by the soundtrack. If you remove the score, even like some scenes that are fairly basic, like a dialogue is basic, you know, [00:39:00] like there's nothing super emotional happening, you know, in the scene.
But the score throughout is so incredible that elevates everything, elevates the, you know, more, the slower scenes elevates the more like fight these things. So yeah, if, if you're the score, it would be more like a seven out of 10 films for me. And that kind of, I don't know, Han merge. Fantastic. Yeah. It's one of my favorite scores.
Ben: One of the pieces of music that I've forgotten about that, I, I think everybody goes to like the crazy, like razor blades on strings from like the dark night and the dark night rises. But actually some of the best music is that the really emotive music at the end of the dark night, in the scene where he, which two face and Jim Gordon and his son mm-hmm that's, those strings are, are Bri and it's not, and it's not, uh, it's not the really intense.
like, as I say, like razor blades on the strings, it's just this really emotive piece of like, Orchestration. It's brilliant. And as you say, it kind of elevates it from like a [00:40:00] seven to a 10. I mean, I think, I think the dark night as superhero movies go is pretty much perfect. Yeah. That would be my opinion.
Like I don't think, and I love end game and I love what Marvel do. , but for me as someone who loved the Batman comics, when I was younger and still has a like really great appreciation for what the Batman comics do, I don't think anything's beaten the dark light for what it did at the time. Mm-hmm and what it kind of cont like it still holds open and you rewatch it, I think.
Sophie: And it does have my final scene from the tri like the, the final, the monologue of, uh, Gordon in the. It's just amazing. I I'm all for a happy ending for Batman. The one thing that I didn't like though was Eleena joining him. That was the one thing I was like, mm. Again, Nolan is not quite famous for writing iconic, like female roles in general.
And I do have my issues with how he's, I don't know how he wrote, you know, Miranda, Tate and Rachel, and even cat. but the thing is I would much rather [00:41:00] he goes on. I mean, I don't know, he didn't need someone by his side and he definitely like didn't need Kahu where the, you know, how, like early on the film, there's a bit of a scene.
I mean, there's a scene where on Hathaway's Kahu cuddles up with Geno Temple's character. There's suggestion that it's her girlfriend. Which is, I mean, it's much more clear in, you know, is that what Gratz? Yes. That's his, that is bisexual. And you can tell that you kind of do your own things. It kind of bras him all throughout the film and all of a sudden she gives up everything and she joins him in Italy.
Like cut woman. She's a kind, I don't know, to me, she was more like, yeah, I'll fuck you. By the same time. You're you're like a, I don't know. You're like. Side
Ben: has for me, she does have that big switch towards the end where she says to, yeah, doesn't feel she said what she says to Batman, you know, just come away with me and let's go and stuff like that.
Yeah. It's busy. Silly. You knows it's it is a little bit it's a bit forced. Yeah. Yeah. It could have just been someone else could have been just some random woman.
Sophie: Yeah. Or just on his own, like [00:42:00] go to go find yourself. Like you need some, you, you need some alone time.
Ben: you need for a, you need to think about what you've done.
Sophie: just chill. Like just like yeah. Go find yeah. An Italian woman. Um, I don't know. That's my only thing. I think, I think that wasn't very in that,
Ben: in the same. Yeah. I think, I mean, the only thing, it, the, the only reason she's kind of needed there is you can't have the whole thing about the Pearl necklace to reinforce that he is there to have the Pearl necklace missing and to have her have it, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. I dunno. Yeah. But it does just feel like a, a throwaway
Sophie: thing. Yeah, probably, probably she's
Ben: gonna betray him, like at the end of casino, Royal basically is what's gonna happen. Yeah. That happened in Italy as well. Yeah. Don't go to Italy. Don't run away to Italy. The love your life is what we learned from that movie.
Sophie: it definitely sounds like we solve the ending though. Anyway, I think. Or maybe Chris and be did, I don't know. Anyway, this was, uh, a lot of fun if you made it this far. Thank you so much for listening. And I mean, you know what to do, subscribe the podcast, Spotify, apple podcasts, wherever you're listening.[00:43:00]
And don't miss out on the next episode because you know who we're gonna be talking about. Jordan peel his back after three years with Nope. So go watch it and we'll be back to spoiler the heck out of it with you in two weeks. Goodbye.