#TeamCage, Halo reactions, Mommy ending explained & a Jim Jarmusch tribute with Night on Earth

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Sophie: Hello. We are back with another episode of that final scene. My name is Sophie and I'm back with the full gang. Ben and Simon.

Ben: Yeah, we're back. 

Sophie: I feel like I haven't seen you in forever. How have you been?

Simon: Not too bad.

Ben: Yeah. I mean, I was fine. I got vertigo for a while. That's thing. I didn't tell you. That was great fun. What happened? I went to the gym because like, that's, that's me now. And like halfway through, I started getting really light at, and then literally got home.

I couldn't get outta bed for like 24 hours. Why did you get ver go from the gym? I have no idea. Basically. I went to a and E and they were like, yeah, well, did you cause these things just happen. What is it like? Uh, it's like a room just spins, literally. Like I would try and get outta

Simon: bed and walk to the living room.

Wait, this what you're telling Ellie to get out of going to the gym?

Ben: no, it's if I say it on a podcast, then it's real. No, it's certainly not. [00:01:00] It's certainly not. I was planning on putting together a little montage of me, just, uh, talking over the YouTube track vertigo, but then I didn't, I thought that was a little bit too much work and it's not to do

Simon: with the fact you flew on an airplane recently.

No, nothing.

Sophie: No, I get that quite a lot. When I jump on the T. But you're not supposed

Ben: to jump on a treadmill. You run on the runway. Jump hate to jump on it. Funny you jump on down.

Sophie: No, no, no, no. As in dump put, you know, dump on a treadmill and then I start walking and running. Okay. You have to jump because like, oh, you mean to get going on it?

Yeah, exactly. That's what I meant. So do you like set it going really, really fast and then jump on? Yeah. You know what, you know, when people say jump on a call,

Ben: Yeah. Yeah.

Simon: Don't I catch myself in that, but I try not to say that anymore. Cause it's why it's like corporate lingo. I started

Ben: saying hop. Yeah.

Makes it a little bit more whimsical, you

Sophie: know? Yeah. It's Moreal. It's Moreal,

Ben: but yeah. So mine. Yeah. An action pack two weeks since we recorded for me, I feel like

Sophie: we aligned because that's when I started going to the gym. Properly after was, we were quite the last time, you know,

Ben: as soon as I think it's the season, as soon as we started like getting into audio on a, on a medium that no one can actually see me.

I thought I really [00:02:00] need to lose some weight. you watch film in the gym? I think I have a face and I've got a clearly fat voice, you know, um, no, I don't now I don't, I can't do that. I see, I see a lot of people who like watch movies and they watch episodes of TV shows while they're on the treadmill stuff.

I just, I can't do that. I can't like concentrate on that. I have to just, I just listen to music and podcasts and just like switch. Listen to R just, I'm a massive narcissist. I just listen to my

Sophie: podcast all the time. I used to have this terrible habit of watching stuff on my phone. When I used to commute to work, I was the worst kind of person back then.

Hmm but I feel like I'm doing much better because I stopped doing that. And I only reserve TV and like cinema time for that kind. I don't, it just feels weird. Now, do you read a book? I just listen to podcast instead, just

Ben: stare blankly

Sophie: at the person across the aisle. Like I think the equivalent is, you know, when you eat loads of sugar, Right.

Okay. Regularly. It makes you feel like crap, but because you are used to it, you don't quite feel how bad it makes you feel. And once you stop eating sugar, [00:03:00] and then you have it like a few weeks later, or months later, you realize how bad it is for you and you can't quite get back to that. Like biscuits don't quite taste the same anymore.

Simon: What are you saying? Just me miss purity

Sophie: now. And you're not Eastern Michigan. Yes, exactly. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying that small screens are bad for you. Mm-hmm so now I can't. What's anything on like a mobile. So

Ben: if we won't watch anything on a screen, that's below 70 inches, you know? Yeah.

everything about seven inches has to be wide screen cinema aspect.

Sophie: Speaking of, uh, what have you guys been watching?

Ben: Recently, I've watched quite a lot. I feel like I've finally finished stranger things, even though I saw every spoiler possible. Nice because me and my girlfriend, I was talking to her about it.

I was like, how have you avoided all these spoilers? Like, she was like, oh, I dunno. Like any of them I'd seen basically the main spoiler for it, which. I, we could talk about if we want to it's inevitable. Yeah. But it's basically because I just follow lots of nerdy, like IGN within a couple of days, we're just posting about this character's dead.

And you're like, oh, for fuck sake. [00:04:00] and so, yeah, my Instagram feed was just full of that. Um, finished the boys as well, which we could talk about, uh, and started watching halo. I got the, I got P plus para plus, and I'm really, really underwhelmed by it. Yeah. They've made a P have made a TV series. That I think it's been fully released in the states and here they're doing it like week by week, some nice Irish representation in it.

There's some Irish actors in there, which I love. Uh, but yeah, I mean, it's kind of like for a TV show, that's based off a very exciting video game. It's kind of dull. It kind of looks like a low end. Sci-fi like it doesn't look like even though they've probably pumped tons of money into it, it still kind of looks like Firefly.

And I loved Firefly. Like I got Firefly fire fly. Oh dude. Firefly's the best show ever that only got one season. Uh, it's like a, it's a show from like 2000 or early two thousands directed by Joss Whedon. And it just got one season and it's basically kind of like this sci-fi show about like a bunch of rebels, you know, kind of that kind of thing, but it is really good [00:05:00] and it only ever got one season.

And so everybody's all the whole thing is like, bring back Firefly, but they'll never bring it back. Cause it's perfect as it is. But yeah, it just kind of looks like that, you know, like early kind of naughty sci-fi where every kind of setting looks the same. And so, yeah, I've just been a little bit, yeah.

Underwhelmed

Sophie: that's on the back of

Ben: the game, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like the halo. Yeah. Halo games have been coming out for like, since the early two thousands. Yeah. I'm not

Sophie: surprised. It's bad. As in like, I feel like it's rare that. Games have translated well on the big assassin

Ben: CRE Warcraft, like God, that assassin creed.

Well, again, Irish representation love Michael Bassman Christ. That film was terrible. Yeah. Oh my God. It was so pointless. Now having said that and I've, I I'm, I do plan on watching it arcane, which is on Netflix is supposedly really good. And that based off a video game as well, um, my brother, what that he was.

Yeah. And I think people are starting to get better at it, you know? Trying to be as true. I think that's the problem with the halo one, the halo. One's just not that true to the source [00:06:00] material. Like the main thing about the games is that you don't know what this guy looked like. And he wears a suit of armor the whole time.

Within about 10 minutes of the first episode, he takes his helmet off and you're like, oh great. It's porn stash from oranges, the new black, like it kind of like, it breaks that illusion that the video games have like, spent so many years of building up of like this faceless super soldier. And it's like, oh, okay.

So. We just don't care. I'm kind of forcing myself and watch it. how have you got

Simon: enough time to force yourself to watch a show you didn't like? Cause

Ben: I, I like I get into bed at night and I will just watch an episode. Okay. Like that tends to be when I do a lot of my, like that thing to sleep. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of has.

Yeah. It's a kind of shocking indictment for that TV show very quickly

Sophie: to go back to the boys. Yeah. I just wanna apologize to the so runners, if they're listening for, for what I said in the previous episode, because I feel like, because the finale like made up for the entire

Ben: season, I thought the finale was great, but there was still some stuff that was really predictable, like predict.

Oh yeah. But

Sophie: I feel like that's not, it's not the end. It came across as a semi finale. In

Ben: a way, it feels like we've gotten to like a [00:07:00] mid-season finale. Yeah. Rather than kind of finishing up. Cause I dunno if, I dunno again, it goes back to like how much longer can I watch the show where the guy is the epitome of like American white supremacy.

Sure. And it's just a little bit like, oh, okay. So like you can kill someone in front of a crowd of people and we're killed with that now. Um, but. I thought there was a lot of, like, there was a lot of the character arcs came nicely, full circling, like star lights was great. And I'm Mely redeem himself.

Exactly. Simon's like, I've never seen this for a while, but you should watch it. Yeah. I, I think you'll enjoy it. It's it's good superhero. It's basically a thing where they go superheroes are dicks. People

Sophie: who are super powered. You like that pulse? I think I kinda like

Simon: the boys. I wanna watch the lost boys.

That's on my list to watch soon. That's

Ben: about vampire for

Simon: Sutherland, the vampire eighties

Sophie: film. We still have a thing like what we're gonna do around Halloween. Yeah. It'd be nice

Ben: to do like a bunch. Yeah. If anyone has suggestions for like some good, scary movies for us to watch mm-hmm Donny DCO. I think Danny, darker's a good one to have another list for Halloween and lost boys is another good one.

And [00:08:00] then. We've got like alien has an anniversary coming up. Doesn't it? Yes. So we could do alien for that. Yeah.

Sophie: I love Stephen King. So we need to do legacy Kings misery. Yeah. Oh

Ben: my God. Yes. Oh God. Oh geez. Every time's under my face. God, every time I watch misery, I feel like my legs are gonna break. It's just like, ah, I do it though.

I do it part one and two. I'd be for watching that as well. I think that'd be good. Yeah. Get some, uh, some Tim Curian some Tim Curry action legends. Oh

Sophie: yes. So the old one? Yeah, not the, oh yeah, no, not the new one. I have to watch the old one. I like the first I like eight, the 20 17 1. Yeah. The new one with bill hater

Ben: with some of the kids from stranger things though.

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, which

Sophie: I thought was good. Cool. The main film I wanted to talk about is. Well, I know I'm very late to the party because it actually came out a few months ago on the big screen, but now it's out on, um, 4k DVD install, like whatever it's called the UN verbal weight of massive talent.

Have you heard

Ben: of, oh, the cage movie? Yeah, the Nick cage movie. I haven't watched it yet, but I really wanted to. Okay.

Sophie: So I got a screener from landscape and. Kind enough to give me one. [00:09:00] So I wanted to kind of talk about it for, for a second, because I remember talking about hashtag sponsor, not sponsor it's not sponsor, but like I got the, yeah.

Hello. I remember talking about the film with Tim committing of cinema and he was like, I want you to watch that film because I feel like you're gonna see our friendship in that film. And I did, so I sat out with him long story short. Nicholas Kate's place himself. Well, a version of himself because he's kind of creatively unfulfilled and he's going broke, which to be fair is kind of true or at least was true.

So he accepts an, a $1 million offer to attend a birthday party of. Quote, unquote, super fan of his who's played by Pedro. Bacal love Pedro. Bacal good. Yeah. Okay. So of course he's not no super innocent super founder. He has a reason he's, uh, inviting him over to his party and the CIA. Employees ADEs to take down, Pedro's called [00:10:00] character.

The thing I love about the film is that one, it doesn't take itself too seriously. If you go into that film, trying to make it make sense, you're gonna lose. You're gonna have an awful time. So like, it has a lot of meta references. I think you get a great, highly highlight, real version of like, uh, Nick. Best career moments in a less than a two hour film and the chemistry between kids.

And Pascal's just amazing.

Ben: I love a bit of Nick cage that gets, I think he gets, I think he gets a bad rap. And actually recently in the last couple of years he stood some really good stuff. Like Mandy was great. Pig is really cool. Was amazing. Even in kick ass. He's he's like one of the best things about the first kick ass movie is, um, when he is big daddy, he's brilliant in it.

Yeah. He. That rough patch where like most actors do ever, you know, everybody has them he's national treasure. Yeah. National treasure kind of he's polarizing isn't. He he's like my favorite thing about him having read interviews with him and seeing [00:11:00] him like, like watch clips on YouTube. He is kind of unapologetically, just like, well, this is what I do.

Like he, you know, and he's talked about a lot about like providing for his family and stuff like that. It's like, well, yeah, of course I did like big budget movies cuz I got a load of money so I could put my kids through college. I saw someone posted about the ghost writer. I don't mind the first ghost writer.

I don't it's I don't think he's that bad. I don't think he's terrible. And I think if you watch this hall of filmography and even people who hate him will probably go, yeah, that's good though. Like raising Arizona or something like that. You'd say, even though he's had some stinkers in there and some kind of weird stuff.

Yeah. He's

Sophie: has, yeah. He's he had to do a lot of B movies for whatever reason, but you know, who cares? Like I would, I would have an issue with him if the move is where, you know, problematic or he chosen for, you know, particular reason, but you know, like just like any other person. Making some money. Uh, and the thing is like to go quickly, go back to the film, to what you just said.

He's owning all of that. Like he's owning the meme culture around his legacy and his reputation and you know, it just, it it's, it's such [00:12:00] a 20, 22 film again. It's just, uh, very self-aware. Uh, so there's that. And then very quickly I wanna give a shout out to better. uh, I know you guys haven't caught up yet and I know Ben.

Bidding it very, very soon. Right. I'm planning to,

Ben: yeah. It penciled

Simon: in for Ben's bedtime. Yeah.

Ben: For my bedtime with routine no, it's not,

Sophie: it's not for bedtime. It needs to have your full attention. it must be

Ben: watched in broad

Sophie: daylights. Yeah. I've had a lot of people. On Instagram, Reach's out for a reaction on the podcast.

This is gonna like, this is happening. And I would love for us to maybe do like a special episode, maybe a bonus one around the finale. Maybe that'd be cool. Like a shorter one. So, yeah, as I said, last time, I, um, Just speaks less with what Vince Gilligan has done with the show. I

Ben: will, I promise I will

Sophie: watch it.

you won't be able to make it to the, yeah. You won't be able to watch like four seasons in what, three weeks or something?

Ben: Uh, well, the last time I did that, I was a student and I had a lot more [00:13:00] time in my hands so I

Sophie: can't promise that the one thing that I wanted to mention about the show is the cinematography and.

it's interesting because we never talk about cinematography when it comes to TV shows. Mm-hmm like, you never talk about like composition and lighting and camera work, but they they've just, I, I don't know. I need to look up the cinematographer if it's the same one from breaking bad, or if they changed it just, it's like I'm watching a Roger Dickens level of work.

So, yeah. So that how we went to see. Yes. Yes we did. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's right. We went to see that's totally intelligent now. Yes. Yeah. As you got that, right? Yeah. Um, we went to see Roger Dickens. So what a year ago? Probably. Yeah. To see some of his bad. Okay. Oh, I'm so glad you remember. I'm very proud of you.

I'm just FYI. In this episode, we're gonna talk about the final scene of mommy by Zavier Dolan, which I'm quite excited about. But before we do that, We wanted to spend some time and give some love to night on earth by Jim ish, which came in as a [00:14:00] request from a friend. Yeah. So

Simon: this guy, hi Sam, that me and Ben used to work with this guy called Sam, uh, heard we were doing this podcast and sent him his own review of it.

Um, should we play it? Yeah. Hey, that final scene podcast. I'm getting in touch because I recommended a film to Simon like ages ago. And quite typically I gather he still hasn't got round to watching it. I watched it now. Uh, so I thought I'd broadened the

Sophie: recommendation to the three of you, if you haven't

Simon: seen it already.

Of course, which is very possible as it's a bit of a hidden. Anyway, the film is night on earth. It's from 1991. It's written and

Sophie: directed by American Jim Jamu, uh, who wrote the screenplay

Simon: just a few days, developing characters for actors he wanted to work with and set them in their home cities. I stumbled across it.

Late at night on TV,

Sophie: mainly because it opens with my crush of that era.

Simon: When owner rider shit.

Sophie: Hey, you need a cab lady. Yeah, I guess I [00:15:00] do. I'm right here.

Simon: It's been on my top three films

Sophie: ever since. And here are three reasons. It's

Simon: so great. Firstly,

Ben: the concept

Simon: it's five independent short stories of taxi. At the same time in different cities

Sophie: around the world, LA New York,

Simon: Paris, Rome, and Helsinki.

They're like five long single

Sophie: scenes in real time. Did is a very,

Simon: oh, where anyway, it's definitely interesting for this podcast because it's essentially five different final scenes all in one. Uh, secondly, the characters and dialogue, it's an awesome cast. Newbie Renona rider. Like I said, alongside Hollywood legend, Gina Rowlands, Jan Carlo Esposito way

Sophie: before breaking bads, Fri chicken.

Look, Angela, just, just

Ben: calm down, Tommy. The

Sophie: calm down

Simon: Rosie Perez is on great form. Beatres dial of Betty blue fame

Sophie: [00:16:00] and best of all, it

Simon: introduced me to the hilarious Roberta Bon. He's not

Ben: I'm gonna rose your friend went on to do one of the best Oscar

Simon: winning speeches

Ben: of

Sophie: all time for life

Ben: is beautiful. This is a terrible mistake because I use up all my English

Sophie: third and for.

Simon: Finally Jamu is also a musician. And I think that really is evident in the pace, the rhythm, the mood, the unique atmosphere throughout, and particularly thanks to the score from Tom waits.

Spirit of each city is perfectly captured with so many themes running through the five storylines, personal passions, goals, and dreams, family, friend.

Sophie: Prejudices loss,

Simon: heartbreak, and first love it's hilarious and moving storytelling for those intimate transient

Sophie: interactions of a taxi journey.

Simon: It's beautiful.

Relatable simplicity. I hope you enjoy it as much as

Sophie: I have over the years. No [00:17:00] was a boy. His boys is

Ben: Sam. Doesn't have a great voice.

Sophie: It's very Tim Barton me. Yeah, it

Ben: is. That's what I thought. It's very like, yeah. Very mid nineties Edwards, ans webs.

Simon: Thanks for that, Sam. That was wicked. But some of that film, disturbed Ben quite deeply.

Yeah. I mean,

Ben: so there's justly the choice of award, like right. Listen, his Oscar speech may have been great but. How spending 15 to 20 minutes watching a man, pretty graphically disturb what to describe what it's like to SHA a pumpkin and then SHA a sheep. And then. SHA a sister-in-law subsequently killing a priest in the back, given the full amount of heart attack, kind of, yeah.

Wasn't my cup tea. Uh, I did enjoy some of it. I'd say like, and it's an interesting one because, uh, almost like talking about a TV show, you can break the film down into five individual segments, you know, and talk about the ones that you like. And [00:18:00] didn't like, um, I really liked the New York one. I thought that was really good with, um, yeah.

IPO Jan Caro Esposito. And I can't remember the name of. The German actually plays much helmet Mueller, but I thought that was brilliant. Like that was the one that felt like the most kind of honest, because it was a genuinely two people from completely different places and not understanding and actually from a final scene element, actually when helmet drives off and is driving through when he drives away and he takes off as red now is you kind of, it, it doesn't say anything, but you get this real sense of what it must be like to.

An immigrant who's just arrived in New York. Who's now driving a taxi, doesn't know where anything is and doesn't actually speak the language. And it's quite a, like a, like I've only ever been to New York as a tourist, never even tr would trying to live there, be insane. And you just kind of see it in just his, in his facial expressions of driving around the city and the kind of fear and not like uncertainty in his face.

And I really, I did really enjoy that. I enjoyed the French one as well. I enjoyed the one in the one in Paris. I know. I can't [00:19:00] remember what I've seen Theron. I've seen him in a, in a couple of different things, Betty

Sophie: blue that's I was

Ben: here to stand out. Um, but yeah, I mean the Winona

Simon: one, I did, I found her quite overed.

Yeah. I was

Ben: as well. She was only, she would've only been like 19 or 20. She must be one of her first roles. Yeah. As we were listening to the clip as a, as I quite rightly pointed out, you know, if I was a taxi driver in my twenties and someone offered me the chance to be a big movie, Damn fucking right. I'd say yes, like not a fucking chance on turning that down.

That doesn't make a good

Simon: film though. Ben. Yep. It's it's a film that's

Ben: broken into five parts. At least that one can have a happy ending. It would one them, a priest dies in one of them. At least let somebody have a happy ending Christ. Let one own a be an actress. Well, you sat turn. The priest died. I wasn't sad when the priest died, because it was just a, an entirely strange encounter.

I was just, I was almost happy. It was over. I was like, honestly, thank God. He's dead. Because if he had to put up with that man for another 10 minutes, he probably have jumped out the bloody window. like, oh God. But at standpoint out, one of the best things in it is the [00:20:00] music. Like the music in it is fantastic.

Sophie: I agree it, you know, I mean to go back to the, to the own one, you can use the problematic. No, there's nothing problematic about the film because it, Jim D I mean, he's a godfather of the filmmaking. There's nothing to yeah. Criticize on that film, but like go back to the Rome one. It has that kind of super extroverted energy that it's quite toxic at the same time.

Like, I couldn't quite, it was intolerable. He brings that kind of. Brand energy that I'm not here for. And I just remember like waiting for it to end. I think what's interesting. Better the get part of it because there's nothing there beyond just some. Like surface laughs really? Yeah. There's

Ben: nothing.

There's nothing to like connect you to that character. That's not, I find it quite surreal. I'd say, well, I think the thing I'm

Sophie: surreal about like a conversation with a cab driver.

Ben: Well, I think, I think we might talk about this when we talk about mommy [00:21:00] later in the episode, but I, I, and I think the thing that Jeremys does well in it is that.

European cinema and kind of that kind of like French, Italian cinema always does feel a little bit kind of like exaggerated and stuff like that. And you definitely feel that in mommy with the kind of the French Canadian element of like, there's a lot of exaggeration and just in the language and stuff like that.

And I think that definitely does it right, as you say so, and I think it's quite a surreal thing and he, he balances that quite well. Like they do feel like. French and Italian films, like they got, they almost like could have been directed by a French filmmaker or an Italian filmmaker, but yeah, as, as you say, Sophie, there was nothing even in surrealist comedy and stuff like that, it just feels like surface laughs.

Like it doesn't feel like there's anything kind of deeper there. I dunno. That was. From from my take. Anyway, for me,

Sophie: one of the most disappointing aspects of the film was that there was nothing, especially intrinsic to the story, setting the LA story. Wasn't an LA story. Like the Helsinki story wasn't you couldn't tell there was nothing, you know, finished about [00:22:00] it in a way.

So that to me felt like I missed opportunity to me. It looks like he didn't have any ground point to make with that film. It was more like. I wanna visit those places. And I wanna make a movie with my friends. it's

Simon: like, it was like dropping in on conversations. I thought you were dropping in these sure.

Fun conversations in a cab. That was it. It wasn't any deeper than

Sophie: that. Yeah, that was it. So I don't wanna call it the home movie, but it was very close to that. Mm.

And

Simon: what

Sophie: movie home movie, what do you mean as, as in like, had that kind of amateur feel as like you're doing it for the sake of having. and like, yeah, to your point, get that kind of insight into these conversations that are temporary, right?

Like those relationships that you have, you develop with a cab driver temporary, but sometimes essential. And then mark, they could mark your life in a way, like if win character had said yes, it would have marked your life, uh, significantly. But, um, yeah, I thought that expansion of scope internationally didn't.[00:23:00]

Ben: Add, like the difference between movies and TV and the things that keep you enthralled for a film is like an overarching story. And it is an interesting look at, you know, keeping because I, I, I weirdly I kind of watched it in segments. So like I wa I was like watching it throughout the day and stuff like that.

So watching different segments at different times, and I had a chance, so I almost watched it like a TV show, but I wonder it, it probably would've been a different experience if I watched it from start to finish. In one sitting like, would I have struggled to get to the end because there isn't this kind of overarching NA narrative that I'm building up to some form of climax and it is just, you know, five different conversations in a taxi cab.

But actually I probably enjoyed it more because I watched it in like conversation by conversation. I watched it like watching a TV show and just saw it as. Is an anthology, the right word? Probably. Probably not, but like it's true. Yeah. Five's, you know, five just individual segments that are 2015 minutes long, like a, like a short film almost.

Um, and yeah, I'd be interested. I [00:24:00] dunno. Did you guys watch it as like continually see, yeah. This one film. Yes, I okay. And how did you find that, like going from start to finish, I really enjoyed the

Simon: rhythm of the story. Switching up every 15, 20, I think it's about 15. They're only about 15, 20 can watch a series of films recently where they're just far too long and they grind on for hours.

Right? This film, we had this refreshing change of tone every well, five times throughout the whole film, which I really enjoyed. I did think culturally, like the countries did come across, there was a certain new Yorkness to the way they were talking the speed of it, the energy of it, very different to.

Italian, which was us rhythm. Exactly. What

Sophie: do you mean he was on, he, it sounded like he was on steroids.

Ben: Sound like he was on speed level steroids. yes.

Simon: I dunno. I quite enjoyed it.

Sophie: What I'm gonna say, because I wanna. I mean, I agree with Ben. Like I love the, the soundtrack. I, I love the cinematography, like to your point, Simon, I think it was like, they really didn't work very well.

So it was very pleasant. What, in a way, and some of the performances are great. You know, most of them, I was like, everyone. I think we exception of Winona. [00:25:00] I yeah. Respond to the brief. Uh, what I, what I am going to say is that looking back at, you know, Filmography for me, the film's biggest significance is perhaps that kind of signified, it kind of brought like a conclusion to that filmmaking period of his, that began with stranger than paradise.

And from that film onward, he went on to make some incredible works like dead man on the lover's left alive, uh, ghost, dog, uh, Paterson. So like a lot of gold. So I think it has a place in his essential.

Simon: Yeah, I watch pats off the back of this. Yeah, I do. Didn't

Sophie: love it. That's

Ben: okay.

Simon: but I like brick and flowers.

Oh, brick and flowers as well. Yeah. Yeah. I really enjoyed that. You seen breaking flowers back? No,

Ben: I've not seen it. That's good. I'll check it

Sophie: out though. Okay. Uh, guys, I think it's time. Let's take a quick break and we'll back with mommy. We'll look a message from our

Simon: sponsor. GI Jane

Sophie: too.

Ben: Can't wait to see it.

[00:26:00] Nah, yo, hold up. Hell.

Sophie: What's up. Y'all got problem. Y'all want some of this without much further at you. Here we go again. Hey guys, just before we get into the final scene, we wanted to give you a quick heads up that we will be discussing topics of mental health, violence, and suicide. So please be kind to yourself.

And if you're not feeling 100% today, maybe listen to the segment some other time. Thank you. We are back with 2014, mommy by Xavier, Xavier. Uh, does any of you speak, does any of you speak French dunno?

Ben: No, no, I don't. I, I did French in school, but I

Sophie: Xavier. So the reason we picked this film is because I posted its final scene on TikTok a couple of weeks ago.

It has one of the best uses of music that I remember in a final scene. So I thought I'd share it. And for you listening, I'm now TikTok. So yeah, if you wanna follow me, you can do that. Anyway, the video went as a young people say these days, viral as, as, as the coolest as a youngster, say [00:27:00] these days, uh, as we speak, the video has almost 900,000 views, which is boners

I go 4,000 followers. Out of love. It's insane. So

Ben: anyway, all 4,000 matter, be listening to this bloody podcast.

Sophie: We did see a spike in downloads, and I know a lot of you out there have been waiting for that, um, episode. So, hi, we're here. The video got a lot of love from all kinds of people. I'm gonna go as far as to say, I wouldn't be surprised if the film saw a slight spike in digital sales because of that video, because we're talking almost 1 million views.

Anyway, uh, we got a voice. as well from, uh, lovely listener. Hi guys. I'm really looking forward to the review of mommy. I love it. And it's one of my favorites of all time and it's really underrated. And I'm really, I really appreciate that you talk about it, cuz I think that it's a film necessary to watch [00:28:00] and I would like to everyone to.

To watch it and give it a try. So thank you so much for that. Thank you. No taken request taken. We're doing this

Simon: actioned. executed .

Sophie: So the film is the fifth feature from the Quebec born director, which won the jury award in 2014 in the can film festival as. That fact alone feel like, you know, it makes it have much more impact.

Dolan actually was 25 when he made the film and he already had four feature films under his radar. So this guy's putting in the work let's leave it like that. I do feel a

Simon: bit inadequate. I know doing

Sophie: that. I know it's. Yeah.

Ben: Thanks Xavier. you intentionally get your name wrong now for making me feel inadequate

Sophie: in any case, uh, I will take a stab at summing up the plot of the film so we can talk about the ending, needless to say spoilers ahead.

So mommy set in Quebec in an [00:29:00] imaginary near future. The future is one that contains the S 14 legislation, which enables parents to commit their usually troubled kids. When they turn 16 to public institutions, the film kicks off with Steve. Problematic as Simon would like me to say teenager to say the least that has just been thrown out of a special school for setting fire to the cafeteria and causing burn injuries to fellow student.

Now, his mother, a 40 something working class, single mother, Diane, or the claims to be able to look after and even homeschool Steve until he turned 16 and is eligible for that grim option of state sponsor at the residential. Steve is hyperactive. He's loud, he's abusive. He has ADHD. He has serious boundary issues.

His mother is, I would say is not all that different. And as soon as Steve is releasing to his mother's care, it's where the film explodes into full mania and anarchy yet somewhere into the first 35 [00:30:00] to 40 minutes, a new central character comes in. Steven D make friends with her next, or neighbor Kyla, a teacher who suffered the nervous breakdown to years before.

The chief symptom of which is TAing. She offers to tutor Steve, and somehow, certainly not without a five managed to soften him. And also form said friendship with. Unfortunately, the piece doesn't last for long with the threat of legal proceedings over Steve's injuring of a child in his former institution looming his relationship with his mother becomes once again, unstable.

And this all comes to a boil with a suicide attempt on Steve's part, which leads to Diane, eventually giving in and committing him to a state institution in the financing of the film. We see Steve break free from the guards and jump out of the window. Wait

Simon: minute. That's not. What that's the final scene.

You never see him jump out the

Ben: window. You never see him jump out the window. Yeah, well he, he, okay.

Sophie: He it's implying naughty. He runs towards the window with implication that he's [00:31:00] gonna jump out of it. Yeah. But

Simon: you don't know with

Ben: feet, don't fail me now, taking me to the finish line discussion was gonna be around

Simon: what actually happened when it goes that's that's where

Sophie: we're gonna talk about.

I mean, yeah, we, yeah, but based on what I've,

Ben: what do you think he just hits the window and just hits it like a brick wall and bounces

Simon: back. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times in that film, it's like a, a diversion isn't there, you think something's gonna happen? And then it goes the other way. So it's not, I don't

Ben: think so.

I think this is, I can

Simon: talk about it. He's ex his case. Like he tries to commit suicide in the, in the shop and he fails to, but I think

Ben: this is the finish line. And I think the fact that just before this, he's off the phone with die telling her, you know, yeah. Apologetic

Sophie: is. And in terms of like first reaction, because I think what you just said is interesting.

What did you think of the ending in terms of, did you find it shock. What was your reaction going into that

Ben: final screen? It's really sad. Yeah. I thought it was combined with the fact that we, we find out just before we see this, like the reason she doesn't answer the, the phone to him is that Kyle's just come over to tell her that she's moving to Toronto.

[00:32:00] So actually for die, it's like a, you don't see her reaction to what's happened to Steve, but her Joe, her performance. when she is holding back, tears looking across the street is like, mm, brilliant. Yeah. Like it's in incre, like you see, you know, the most impactful films or when you see points in your life, you're like, fuck, I've, I've done that.

Like, I've been that per, you know, when you're trying to really hold something in and like her blowing out her cheeks and puffing at, out our cheeks and stuff like that. And it's just like gut wrenchingly painful.

Sophie: Did you expect it to take that kind of sad, hopeless turn? Because for me, the ending is very hopeless.

Mm-hmm

Simon: yeah. So at the beginning of the film, you know, that this law's been enacted and you know that this kid, Steve. He's obviously got terrible ADHD problems. Yeah. Attachment problems. And he's becoming more and more of a loose cannon. So, you know, throughout the film, the tension's building, like, is she, or isn't she gonna, you know, do this?

And the

Ben: thing that, one of the things that, you know, you know, you hear a line in the [00:33:00] film and you think that's gonna be important. One of the first things that's said to her, when she's going to check him out from the school, she's having to talk with the secretary where she informs her about, you know, this new welcoming, and, and she says her loving people doesn't save.

mm-hmm and that's the whole premise of pretty much the whole premise of it is her trying to save him by just loving him to the best ability that she can. And eventually it just becomes, you know, although

Simon: it might have done because I read it as Kyla thinks in, in that last conversation meeting Kyla and Diane, that Kyla doesn't approve of her committing him to the institution.

No. So, so that's, and actually it leads to potentially his death. So maybe Kyla was right and it was wrong of her to give in. Not carry on loving him in the

Sophie: home at that point. It's when we realize Diane puts yourself first, because I have the quote in front of me from that conversation, which I thought it was quite important.

She says I sent him there because I have hope I'm full of hope. Okay. This world doesn't have tons of hope, but I like to think that it's full of hope. People hoping all day long, better off that way, [00:34:00] because as hopeful people contains. Hopeful world with hopeless people that won't get as far I did what I did.

So that way there is hope. So I win all the way. It's a win-win for everybody. So for her, it was the prospect of hope of a happy life of a future that led her to have Steve. Institutionalized. And it is as though she realizes that this is the way to go for her, for her to have a normal life. Right. Because she doesn't pick up the phone.

She disengages, she lets him disintegrate in like in the institution. She refuse. Like it's literally no contact. at that point onward it's called tall tires. Yeah. And she called it a win. It's a win-win for me, that's really like the pivotal point of her making

Simon: language. I didn't really like that because I, I didn't think there'd been that much passage of time since him going into the psychiatric hospital for along that scene.

Yeah. He was two weeks into, I just that's just two weeks later. It's probably like, I read that as like an initial [00:35:00] period of like, let him settle in. You're not allowed to contact him, whatever it wasn't like she'd written him out of her life and

Sophie: she'd gone. There is, there is a lot of intention. There is a lot of intention in the scene where she doesn't pick up the phone.

There's a reason that scene is there. Ah, but I, I just thought she was, and what's the reason for not engaging with him and like over the phone, but she didn't why kind of contact

Simon: like that, the way that was shot. I didn't think that she was ignoring the phone on purpose

Ben: or she was, she missed it. Yeah.

Cause she's out. She's outside. Yeah.

Simon: She's like in a different room. The phone, the shot is like the phone's on a glass table like this. And then the, the daughter, what she calls the shed is closed. And then she's having that loud conversation with Kyla that I read it. It's just. The phone's ringing and she's just trying to keep herself busy with this ridiculous conversation with

Sophie: Kyla, for me, thread, he's not a priority.

Otherwise what's, what's the purpose of that scene. I,

Simon: I think that when she discovers that he's called, she'll be absolutely gutted. She didn't answer the phone. Yeah.

Sophie: But she expects that call. I mean, obviously she knows that he has access to like,

Simon: so like he's in general, but she's like all over the shop.

She's a bit mad. She's [00:36:00] she's losing the plot and she's missed this important call, but I don't think it was intent.

Sophie: I'm not sure. I saw it very differently for me. It says that that her choice is very intentional. And to me, that scene, I saw that kind of redemption

Ben: narrative. No, I did. I think that's two different things though.

I kind of agree with you both, but I think in two different ways, I think her language of the win-win, she, the kind of selfish nature of her decision that putting him in there is for her. But I also don't. . I also agree with Simon in that I don't think she would have ignored that phone call.

Simon: Yeah. That quote, when you read that back then that to me, that's her convincing herself that what she's done is the right thing, but she feels terrible about it cuz she's still his mom and she keeps throughout the film reminding him that no matter what he does, she'll always love him.

I think she's hating the fact she's made this decision, but she just can't cope with it any

Ben: longer. She's brought she, I mean, in the final conversation with Carla. Broken. Like, she just feels like

Simon: she's like almost hyper. You can't even speak normally. She's like trying to pretend that her [00:37:00] life is fine, but clearly yeah, exactly.

Ben: She can pretending it's fine when it's not. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like the inception ending. Right. You know, you can actually take a couple of different things, but because we don't actually see him jump out the window, we just, it's kind of implied with the, with the song and what we can, we can probably talk about the soundtrack and stuff like that.

You can have different interpretations to it of maybe he doesn't, maybe he does. And then what is. Dies reaction going to be,

Sophie: I thought it kind of prophesied his fate in a way mm-hmm yeah, because it does feel like the cutoff point is intentional from Dolan, right? Like there's a reason the ending is up in the air because.

depends on maybe on the state of mind that you have what's in that film as well. And if you feeling hopeful or hopeless, right. So what happens is we see Steve free himself from a straight jacket and jump through the window. And I people in the comments in the, uh, TikTok video went on like a crazy spiral, like ready to have hole a way where they were like, it was the second floor.

It was the third floor. It was the fourth floor because it's the second proper property [00:38:00] you wouldn't die. It's the ground floor. it breaks out like the incredible, yeah, there were someone in the comments that were. It's a second floor because we are surrounded by forest and you can clearly see the sunset wow.

Like a super elaborate. I mean, I'm not gonna go yeah. Down dive. That's a deep dive, the deep dive, but to go back to the, to the soundtrack, you have the born to die, um, landed Ray song dropping out of nowhere. So what I got out of that ending is that there is. Promise of happiness and future that is kind of alluded by, in that die quote earlier.

Right? It's kind of, yeah. The thing is two things happen. He either makes around, right. And he's trying to escape and he survives and he either gets called by guards and what's the best scenario of that. He gets more drugs, he gets more sedated. He gets excluded from the society. Like it's all gonna go [00:39:00] downhill that way.

or die

Ben: or option number three. Yes. The sequel is a revenge horror breaks in with his plan wig. Yeah. And it's called daddy now because he refers himself as daddy. And he's going to kill his mommy

Simon: in the scene that you're talking about, where he's running towards a window in the Lana Delray tracks playing the lyrics of feet.

Don't film me now. Aren't they? Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, to me, I read that as, or heard that as that's what he's saying to himself. He's. Yes, let me kill myself hundred percent. Yeah. That's

Ben: what you want. I think so. And I think if, if you look at the songs used throughout the film, there's a very intentional use of music rather than dialogue.

Like the opening scene is white flag. I mean, we love a bit love a bit of DDO and white flag. You know, play is when die is, you know, pulling herself together, pulling our lives together, saying I'm not gonna give up, Steve, you know, is this gonna work out with Steve? And then the bit in the middle, you know, Wonder wall today's gonna be today where I throw back to you, the screen gets bigger, which is, I think is one of my favorite things.

I love that bit when [00:40:00] he

Simon: opens the

Ben: screen in his hand. Yeah. The whole film is shot in, was it one, one? And then he pulls the screen open and that for whole scene of just this hopeful scene with the three of them and the weight is off his shoulders and he's truly happy and the song reader reflects it. So I think actually you probably can make the assumption, as you say.

It's feet. They'll fail me now. You know, let me do this. It's

Sophie: it's true. Like Dolan, it's really intentional. The use of music. Dolan has said that, and this is why I know Simon. You have thoughts about the soundtrack and the reason sometimes like the song choice is kind of debatable, but he has said that the songs are not.

Chosen by him as a director by, by the

Simon: characters. So at the beginning of the film, I was like, what are these tunes? It's really trashy soundtrack. It's really cheesy. . And then once I learned it was about the mix tape that his dad had given him from the road trip that did in California years ago. And, and there's this CD, you see him sort of treasuring.

I took that to mean that probably most of the tunes that you're hearing in the film are from that CD. And then that made loads of sense. And it's like this childhood mixed CD, [00:41:00] that's like imprinted on his mind and it's become the soundtrack to his life. And then that Lana Del Ray won in my head was the last track on that CD.

Ben: yeah. It's where the album ends. Yeah. And that's

Simon: why like IEL 60 fives in it died O counting crows, like all of these, just this MGAs board of random pop from over the years. And then once I found out it was from his dad, it made way more sense. Mm-hmm and yeah, as you say, chosen by the character, it's, it's literally, that's where the whole, I think that combined with the.

Handheld camera one Toone aspect ratio gives you the slice of life feeling a little bit. Sure. Not a documentary, but it just feels more like a home movie you said before, intimate, intimate. Yeah. Intimate. And then you have those brilliant moments where it opens up and becomes more expansive and more like you can breathe cinematic.

Yeah. I think it was really effective and really creatively done. I think

Ben: that's my favorite scene in the film that wonder, well, scene, I think it's actually

Simon: measure the screen with a tape measure. Cause like, is that portrait or is that square in a, in a

Ben: difficult film to watch it's this really. Hopeful scene.

And actually, do you know what I think, I dunno if we wanna talk with this or not, but I think [00:42:00] the, what makes the actual ending even more heartbreaking is that we get a false ending in the montage of him. Sure. Getting into school, him getting his life together, him getting Mar like that at this beautiful scene of your like fucking head could have run.

Yes. Steve gets his life together. And like, this is just what you want because you're rooting for him of like, you. You know, it's not your fault to, you know, want, you know, Matt, Damon, Goodwill hunting. Like it's not your fault type thing and want, you know, really wanting the best for him. And then it just cuts back to like, it's a really direct, it's a really abrupt cut as well.

Like it just cuts the black and it's back in the car. Yeah. And she's like, I need to go to the toilet. Let's pull over here. And then there's that realization in his eyes as they're coming towards the car. It's just like, yeah, it's painful to watch because as you say. It's like what you could

Sophie: have won.

That's why the ending works, because I feel like when you take the first intro card that [00:43:00] introduces the S 14 legislation, which, which, I mean, you can tell, he wants to make a social political argument with that film because he starts with that. And then he ends with, um, Steve's fate, which is not gonna be a good one, regardless of the outcome.

It shows that at the end of the day, there is no. hopeful future for people like, like, I think these people are representative of people like working class, living a marginal space in the, in the context of mental she's vulnerable. Yeah. Mental health, traditional family dynamics is a single mother class as well.

So, so it is very pessimistic. Right. And I think Dolan is a bit like that, but I feel like it's more about the bigger issue that you want to touch on, which probably isn't. He didn't do it in that the most impactful way, but I feel he wants to address that as well. Yeah.

Ben: I didn't feel

Simon: like it was like overly political though.

I, I thought it was a great piece of work. Yeah. Without the politics.

Sophie: I know we kind of touched on this, but the debate in terms of, do we think he killed himself [00:44:00] or he didn't kill himself? What are your thoughts

Ben: on that? Having having not delved into whether I can see the sunset or the tips of the truth, uh, no offense to the people on the internet.

I would, I, I, I would say my conclusion is that he has killed himself. And I think it's that, you know, the lyrics of the song speak to it, especially considering that false ending as well. It's the polar opposites of that. And I think as you say, there's definitely a heartbreaking scene possibly to follow.

I gets that phone call, but that's not something we, we get to see.

Sophie: I think the answer in that, I mean, I dunno if there's truly an answer, but in terms of trying to explore the different. Scenarios is going back to his motivations because you would have a different motivation for killing yourself or making a run out of it.

If anything, if you wanna escape, it means you want to escape because you wanna live your life. So it's like a pursuit of freedom in a way. Well, suicide is like, I'm done. I don't wanna do this anymore. This is over for me. I don't wanna give myself another chance into redemption or like, uh, [00:45:00] up until that point.

You know, with Kyle as well into the picture, we, we started to see him kind of, you know, getting more soft, like a bit more empathetic, maybe the strong word, but bit more like, I dunno, what's the word because I don't wanna be like normal.

Simon: I think the, the phone message he leave his mum is, is kind of goes with what you're saying.

You, he, he lives essentially an apology message. Yeah. Where he does. Developed some empathy. He's like, I'm sorry for all this, the hurt caused you and stuff. That's. So for that reason, perhaps we should think that he did commit suicide. Cause that was out of guilt. That was his suicide note out of guilt.

That a goodbye. Yeah, yeah. Guilt. And if he commit suicide, he'll stop hurting his mom. She'll be able to be happier. And then if you combine that with what you were saying earlier about the point that the director was trying to make, then maybe that is the message he wants to send. Like, this is what happens if you marginalize people with mental health problems and there's no support structure and they did get shoved in institutions.

They end

Sophie: up killing themselves. Exactly. That was one of my questions for you guys as well, because [00:46:00] in the beginning of the film where he's in that special need school, I think it's that kind of school he doesn't make around for. Like he doesn't make around. He's just there. He's just making the most out of like the, the situation, but he doesn't come in suicide.

So something happens throughout the film, which is what we are witnessing, like his relationship with his mom and Ky. That urges him to do whatever he's he's doing in the end. So this is why I think, yeah. Sound like you're bringing really good point. Like what changed him also medication

Simon: is the fact that medication.

Sophie: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Simon: So he's pretty numb. He's making more colder, more calculated decisions under, you know, the medication's very calm down. He says, he says that message to his mom how high he is, how if she could see his face now she'd be like laughing, but don't

Ben: forget as well. This, when he goes in there and assuming there has been no contact for him, When he's being dragged outta the car, it's the greatest betrayal, not from just his mom, but from Kyle a well, a hundred sense, not just his mom, but this other woman who's come into his life.

Who's [00:47:00] helping him get his life together is then just sitting there and, and letting this happen to him in that scene. You see die saying no, no, no. I, I take him back, change my mind. Change, mind, change my mind. Yeah. And as you say, he's making these colder decisions, but actually assuming he hasn't had any contact, it's back, it's off the back of this massive betrayal.

you know, Steve recognizes that he is, yeah, he's apologizing. But when he recognizes that he's troubling, stuff like that, but he was getting his life together and he thought he was and lashing out at the bar and, and other things like that. And then Barings

Simon: great the way they ramp up the tension. So he is doing karaoke and then there's these people making him, calling him all sorts of like homophobic names.

and then as well as that, which is obviously annoying him, he can then see his mom and the potential lawyer that might help him kind of getting close. And he hates that and the whole situation just keeps heating up and heating up until he [00:48:00] snaps. What annoyed me in that scene is that the mom is so engrossed in the lawyer.

She probably doesn't notice all the Gooding that's going on. So she probably just thinks he's overreacted. Well, even,

Ben: and, and going back to what you said, Sophie, about the kind of the, the eye win nature, what she says to Steve before he runs away and disappears that night after the bar, it's like, why it's all about her?

Mm-hmm , it's like, why can't like, why can't I have an, like, we're trying to have a normal life and then you do this and blah, blah, blah. And I can't have a normal life because of you. And, you know, I

Simon: did feel for her then because she's at the end of her te even the lawyer guy was like trying to give some perspective on it, even though his motives were probably a bit Dodge, but he was saying how your mom's given everything.

She's given you her whole life, you know, everything she's doing it's for you. And you could see why she was like, I want something for myself. Yeah.

Sophie: I've got a life. I think this is what the director does quite well, even though ultimately. Diane chooses herself in a way and chooses her life for the time.

And know, I

Simon: dunno if it's at this present woman, she might be just trying do what's [00:49:00] best for her son. Like you just don't it's not, I wasn't clear to me that she was doing it. Just,

I

Sophie: don't know. No, I'm seeing a lot of, you know, I agree with Ben, I'm seeing a lot of selfishness in her throughout the film.

It's not, it's not like mother of the year for sure. Like she's,

Ben: I don't think she's ever set out to be. I don't think they're trying to, he's trying to

Sophie: paint her as that, but exactly. That's what I was gonna say. I do think. Don't he doesn't try to demonize Diane. No, not at all. I think that's, what's done very well.

Sometimes you have to put yourself first, even if it means you're someone's mom, because you, because you can't take it anymore, you're this critical. Like she

Simon: would end up, let him, she would end up suicidal

Sophie: she hundred percent. So I'm not like this isn't about who's right. Who made the right choice? It's a fucked up situation, period.

But sometimes you reach the, a point of no return where you are so traumatized by what you've experienced, where you're like, I need the fucking. And the fact that I'm a mom shouldn't, you know, come with a stain, right. So it's, it's very complicated in that sense. So the final thing to me implies [00:50:00] that actually, Steve is very much aware of all of that.

And I think deep down, go back that phone call. He, he thinks he's a burden to her and the fact that she made the decision to, you know, get him institutionalized, kind of got to him and he. A lot of guilt, because what you mentioned Simon earlier, before we started recording in terms of how it can get a Bitly, this like husband and wife, brother, and sister, best friends, prince and queen they're everything

Simon: a bit where he kisses her on the lips.

Yeah.

Ben: Yeah. It's interesting. Cuz he does it towards the start of the film as well. And he puts his hand over her mouth, which is what the, the poster of the movie is as well. Mm-hmm yeah. Mm-hmm and then there's the relationship with colo as well? I think that

Simon: just, that is there to demonstrate, um, the, like you say, the boundary issues.

Okay. And the attach. Stuff that he's troubled by. Yeah,

Sophie: yeah, yeah. Yeah. One other thing that I read about Dolan is that he actually used his own experience because he was sent to boarding school by his mother when he was young. So I feel like [00:51:00] he, you can see a bit of autobiographical. He's quite tender to Steve, even though he's a very hard character to like, let's be honest.

And I feel like in the end there, it's almost like he's admirable to him. That kind of pursuit of freedom in the end, whatever that might be.

Ben: Yeah. I mean, his actions throughout the film are at like horrible and that point taxiing the taxi driver, he somehow builds his car and actually it's down to the actor as well.

Like the guy who plays Steve was fantastic. And I think it comes down to stuff like the wonder wall scene, where you see that kind of this tormented soul who. Isn't in control of his emotions. Just these moments of pure joy as well, that like, he's not only bringing to himself, but like you see how much joy die and Kyle get out of him as well of being like, you know, being able to be around him and like, you know, having him as a son and a friend and stuff like that.

But yeah, he still does things that are. Like even in the, in the opening scene or not the opening scene, but you know, the start when they first live together and he's like choking her, she hits him with the [00:52:00] photograph because she's like, I, I thought you'd lock yourself in the closet. Cause like, I thought you were gonna kill me.

I genuinely thought I was going to die. Yeah. So, and it's it like does, yeah. And as you say, the taxi driver scene, like it's quite like visceral, like he's very like his, he

Simon: spits on the

Ben: windscreen. Yeah. Like his, his, his aggression, like you. You feel that aggression like it's, you know, you kind of feel like he's been let loose, like he has seen red.

And I think that's what that actor does really well is you kind of see clearly the points where you see that Steve has been taken over by. Seeing red almost. And like, he's not that person that we know can have this really promising future that we believe he can have in going to Juilliard and getting married and, and these different things.

But I also was

Simon: thinking about when Diane, the mom has served the papers saying you're gonna have to pay 250,000 quit to the kid that got the burns from the fire and the school that Steve started right at the beginning of the film. And that's where it all begins to [00:53:00] unravel ISN. . Yeah. And it's that kind of like suing someone that's already, well, it's got nothing that's

Ben: already needy.

Yeah. How do you take something from mental health, men problems?

Simon: Like what is the benefit to anybody in that? And like, I kind of, I kind of wish that Diane could like write to the mum and dad of the kid with the burns, which is obviously awful and be like, look, this is my situation. Like try and understand.

My son is like really struggling. I mean, I'm sure the money would be useful to pay for his treatment, but I can't afford it. I don't have an insurance. What good is gonna come of

Sophie: this? Yeah, I, I felt it was quite indifferent to the arson situation, which I felt quite uncomfortable as well. Your son is, yeah.

Has caused some serious injury to someone it's like, see that it doesn't get

Ben: spoken about from the beginning until the home of the papers are served or it's awful. But then

Simon: like from Diane's perspective, like she hasn't done. The problems that Steve's got are not something that she's built into him as part of her upbringing.

I don't think no. And so, yeah, but it must be really hard for [00:54:00] her because he's done this terrible thing and it's caused this, these terrible repercussions on this other kid, but she didn't do it and she's gotta just deal with the fallout from it and it's gonna affect her life forever, potentially, but sure.

It wasn't.

Sophie: It's the equivalent of, you know, you have a lot of moms feeling very bad for bringing, you know, psychopaths and like serial killers to life where they feel like a sense of responsibility because is there some, and the thing is what we, what we, and you have a responsibility to how you raise your, like your kids in a way.

I'm not saying off,

Ben: off the back of what you said there, Simon and what again, what we don't see is that just because Steve has gone doesn't mean that lawsuit has gone. Like DA's life is still going true to

Simon: go to. That's true. For me, it was just further tension for her to deal with. And it was just becoming more and more overwhelming, just all this stuff, racking up.

Sophie: Yeah, mm-hmm , which I think is the main takeaway of the film that love and fear can coexist at the same time. And just because you experience both, that doesn't mean that you can live with them, uh, both at the same time. So. [00:55:00] I, I don't wanna say it is okay. To be able to say enough is enough, but that's what happened in this case, which is goes back to us, not condemning Diane in a way, because I feel like deep down under the right circumstances, we can turn into Diane and we kind of owe it to the fact that we are all human.

Right. I think

Ben: that's, that's the film. Does that really well? Is that you. Any person from any family could see themself and what's happening. It's a very real story. The film

Simon: does a good job of giving you empathy for somebody in that situation. You need to keep watching and being exposed to material like that, to remind you of the shit.

Some people are having to go through that wasn't of their making and she's just been shoved into this situation. Her, what has her husband died? Yeah. Yeah. So the kid's got these mental health issues and she's just trying to.

Ben: Survive. Exactly what survives the right word. Isn't it? Yeah.

Sophie: Self preservation.

Yeah. Okay. We solve the ending. You guys, we got there. I think wait. So once

Simon: again saying that he dies and he's saying that he survives, I think he's died. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. [00:56:00] Same. Oh, good.

Ben: You were lining that up to say, okay.

Simon: I've listened to the evidence and I decided ,

Sophie: this is why the has been sold. There we go.

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