We’re getting a tad sappy in this episode BUT it’s so worth it, we promise.
What you’ll hear us talk about:
· Obi-Wan Kenobi, Better Call Saul mid-season finale, Love, Death & Robots Season 3 and of course, Beverly Hills Cop 1 & 2?!
· Our community’s responses on the last time they saw themselves in a fictional character (grab the tissues for this segment)
· Break down the ending of A24’s Everything Everywhere All At Once and why it works so well
Like what you heard? Make sure you subscribe to the podcast to wherever you’re listening. AND if you want to show us some extra love, please rate & review. It makes a huge huge difference.
Also, read my essay on why Everything Everywhere All At Once deserves to be the highest grossing A24 film: https://thatfinalscene.com/blog/everything-everywhere-all-at-once
Overheard at this episode:
Films: Forrest Gump, Jerry Maguire, Roadhouse, Star Wars (the whole film franchise!), Crimes of The Future, Beverly Hills Cop 1 & 2, The Worst Person In The World, C'Mon, C'mon, The Perks of Being a Wallflower, Blade Runner 2049
TV Shows: Obi-Wan Kenobi, Better Call Saul, Breaking Bad, Love Death & Robots, True Detective, The Big Bang Theory
Pema Chodron’s book “When Things Fall Apart”: https://pemachodronfoundation.org/product/when-things-fall-apart-book/
Find the full transcript here
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Sophie: Hello everyone. This is Sophie and you're listening to episode three of the, that final scene podcast, where we talk about some of the best and the worst finals CNC film history today.
You're in luck because we're going to be talking about one of the better. Uh, the final scene of everything everywhere all at once. I'm joined by my co-host Ben and Simon say hi to the
Ben: listener. Hello. We got to the magic number. We got to number three without being booted off the internet.
Sophie: That's nice. Uh, Ben, you know, your Christopher Nolan quote from episode one is kind of going viral on Instagram
Ben: right now.
Like everybody's coming at me on the. That the prestige is Christopher Nolan's best film. And then I'll fight anyone who says, oh, no, actually I didn't say I'd find anyone that says otherwise. But people have said that people have kind of been really got behind it, which I'm quite happy about this. It's a
Sophie: [00:01:00] great movie.
And also Simon, the word you said about weird science and. That scene about not registering because when you were a kid made a couple of our listeners, I
Ben: saw that comment, the guy was just like, yeah, I remembered that. And then I saw the film again and I was like, oh my God, boobs,
Simon: slightly rude. It's unexpected when you watch it again.
Ben: Well, I've told you, I think I tell the story the last time about, you know, me watching Goldeneye and having all those bits cut out and me like, how did I not know this was in the movie? Do you have any like
Sophie: that? Nothing that comes
Ben: to mind. I find it quite a lot with TV shows, stuff like the Simpsons and friends that I go back and watch now.
And you're like, I didn't realize that that was a Dick joke or, you know, you kind of notice things that you didn't notice before. I
Simon: remember when I was a kid, my sister had some friends over and they watched, uh, Forrest
Ben: Gump. God, what a Forrest Gump. If I missed we to
Simon: have a TV in the. That was connected to a video player and another room.
And her and her mates were watching the video in the other room on that [00:02:00] TV, but they didn't know that we were also watching the same feed. And when the naked scene came on with Tom Hanks in it, they rewound it about five times and tried to freeze frame.
And they, and they didn't know. We could see that I
Sophie: am 99% sure that the reason a cock
Ben: shot knock,
Sophie: knock. This is the total recall bot Sophie's indeed. Correct. There's no actual demands. Cock shot for us. Come in 24 minutes into the movie, Tom Hanks is seen drying is in the main ranch and in the background of the shot.
Ben: You hear, they weren't watching, like what's the Tom cruise one where he slides in Jerry Maguire, you know, when he slides into this one is that Jerry McGuire, when he slides into this one, very good job. Good job. Are you sure it wasn't that they were trying to like get the freeze frame he's was like, Ooh, I can see his bull
Oh yeah. But I can't think of anything inappropriate. I do rewatch a lot of stuff. [00:03:00] Now that looking back, I'm like, oh my God, that was so sexist. I was so racist. I feel like a lot of films and TV shows have been ruined.
Ben: What was the one that we watched you were? Oh, Yeah. Roadhouse. How on earth do any of these films get made?
I remember Simon having a discussion with one of Simon. I used to work together. I don't know one of our American colleagues, but while he was called Roadhouse and Simon was adamant, that is called Roadhouse because it's about a house beside the road. You were no, sorry. You thought it was called Roadhouse because someone drove over a house at a monster trucks.
That's why it's called Roadhouse because the houses in the middle of the road, and it gets driven over. Sounds like a
Sophie: thriller. It's really good.
Simon: Like steamy it's exciting. Capture it. It's got a loving nine and
Sophie: a half weeks vibes. Themey
Simon: Patrick Swayze plays a. Double hard bouncer that gets drafted into this town to clean up this dirty club.
And in cleaning up this place, [00:04:00] he riles up a local
Sophie: gangsters. It sounds amazing. You're going to watch it. Um, cool. On a serious note though, I know we've had quite a few people reach out to us sharing their suggestions for the podcast. And even though I feel like there needs to be a mix of conscious programming and intention, because if I'm honest, I know.
I don't want to talk about anything that they actually care about. And I feel like this is one of the reasons I'm doing this with you, because I feel like you come from the same place. But one of the things that people talked about or suggested was a sword news section in the beginning and the record we would love to, but it takes us about an week to put this episodes out.
So if you're looking for a slightly outdated new section, then we can do that. But I don't think that's what you're looking for. So we can definitely make sure that, you know, we do talk about anything that's newsworthy or fields important. Like we did. They talk about cinema con on episode one, obviously the Cannes film festival is taking place right [00:05:00] now.
We are not there. So we can speak about any of the films that came out. I
Ben: did. Shockingly, we didn't get an invite to camp
Sophie: next year. It's happening. I'm going to get a sane. Um, even though I did hear that the new Cronenberg film, the crimes from, uh, from the future had a lot of walkouts. Um, really massive standing ovation.
Ben: I heard a lot of people talking about that. EV I think Cronenberg himself said, I am, people are going to walk out of this movie. It's one of those ones. But then I read a review that said, it's not it's, it's actually, it's not as bad as that statement makes it out to be like him saying everybody. Like we're going to have a lot of people walk out, makes it sound like it's this really like intense, really graphic kind of film.
It's not as bad as it's being made out to. And actually it's a really interesting kind of look at like the human body and then we can treat it and how it will be treated in the future.
Sophie: It sounds like from what I've heard as well, it sounds like it's very much him, but it's, um, [00:06:00] people are saying that.
It's a very much like a retro, like early Cronenberg in a way. So it sounds like he deviated from his work. It just more extreme version of him. So, yeah, I'm excited even though I'm not a massive body horror fan, I have to say, but I mean, for him, I would, yeah,
Ben: it wouldn't massively be the genre that I'm like, I got to see that every weekend I'm interested in it.
I'm definitely interested to see what it's like. I read the review. I know the, uh, the Elvis biopics just premiere there as well. Which I was interested to see. And then I started reading the reviews and a lot, it was etiquette. It's gotten quite a mixed one, but again, it got a really, it, it of like I was reading it the list of like the longest standing of Asians and kind of got a 12 minute standing ovation at the
How come people. It's like I've, I've tried. Yeah. I went to the
Ben: theater last week and now we didn't stand up for 12 minutes at the end of it. And that was a live performance.
Sophie: I mean, I've done London film festival a couple of times, and they also do standing ovations there, like during the premiers, [00:07:00] but after two minutes, like your, your hands go numb.
I just, I just don't know how you can collaborate to tell him in his rate. So good as to the industry and the critics that actually,
Ben: they must have really
Sophie: enjoyed the, they must have really enjoyed that Elvis film. Cool. And very quickly, unsurprisingly, a lot of our listeners have asked for conversations around.
In the filmmaking and for us to talk about, you know, the underrepresented, the overlooked, the underappreciated. So we can reveal two months yet, but we are taking that into account are going to have a couple of interviews that we are lining up for you. And we're also going to be in the Sundance London edition, which I'm also excited about.
Ben: cool stuff coming up over the next few weeks. Yeah. Donna tease it, tease it too much. Not too much. Just,
Simon: just for your information. Sarah has confirmed, it was forest Gump and it carries a nicotine in it.
Sophie: Okay. Ben, we need to rewatch that fan because, and
Ben: I need to watch a frame [00:08:00] by frame.
Sophie: This is why she got the Oscar.
I mean, she got an Oscar for it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's great. That's where you get. Cool. Let's talk recommendations very quickly. I have, what's a lot of TV shows recently, but what have you guys been watching?
Ben: Uh, well, we're recording on the day that, oh, we won Kenobi has been released the latest Disney plus series.
Don't laugh at the name. I'll be one Kenobi Simon. So I basically just spent the last week just watching. All of the pre-calls and the original star wars trilogy. Yeah. Yeah. Watch to Greg. I mean, I love them, I think. Yeah. I would, you know, I, I was talking to someone and they said they recently did all of the movies, like over a weekend from fundamentals all the way through to rise of Skywalker and all the ones in between.
And he was saying, I was like, oh yeah, like I really liked to, except for the first. Fundamentals and Claymores, but for me, it's the last two though. I just can't rewatch. [00:09:00] I can't rewatch last yet. I and the rise of Skywalker because I just don't. Whereas for me, there's like, And this is definitely like the nostalgia thing of cinema watching Phantom menace and clown wars.
I'm like, I remember seeing this in the cinema as a child and absolutely being blown away by it. And so I still have that kind of nostalgic feeling for it. Yeah. They're not the strongest written films in the world, but actually, you know, they've aged pretty well. I saw you McGregor made a really interest comment.
Like loads of people complained at the time that there wasn't like the originals and he was like, what George didn't want to. The Mike, the originals, they want it to be different and they don't necessarily think that was a bad thing. Yeah. I really enjoy going back and watching the early ones as well.
Like a new hope is still a new hope and empire strikes back as science fiction. Two of the best science fiction films ever made. Like they're just brilliant. They are so good and even returned to the Jetta, even though it gets a bit weird when they bring in all the walks and all that kind of stuff, it's still a great film and it's a really solid end to a really good trilogy.
But yeah, that's what I've been watching. And I [00:10:00] watched the first episode of Kenobi today and I quite enjoyed it. So I'm looking
Sophie: forward to it. I love the early ons. I struggled a bit with the chemistry of Portman and Hayden Christmas and the new ones. I just felt like they weren't working. Unscreened from
Ben: me, but that's an interesting relationship.
I mean, I, you kind of just watch it for Hayden Christensen and new and McGregor's relationship, which is why I think they've brought him back. If you, a lot of people were saying that they hadn't even planned to bring Hayden Christensen back anyway. And there was obviously a big push for it. And they had, especially in revenge of the cyst, they have brilliant chemistry and yeah, I don't know.
I'm excited to see what they do with it. And, you know, after the Boba Fett series, which fell a little bit flat for me, I think. Onto a good push. And they've just had the big star wars day thing yesterday was they had a big convention in the states where they just premiered loads of trailers and stuff like that.
So they've set out their stole for what's going with Jude. Law's just been announced as he's going to be starting in a series. So, so
Sophie: anything was undo [00:11:00]
Ben: the holiday. Ah,
Simon: what I found
Ben: the holiday in space,
Sophie: same one. I know you've got a really exciting, that will be all to share.
Simon: Well, I treated myself to another hearing of Beverly Hills cop one.
Yeah. My favorite scene is where they're in the art gallery,
Ben: which we have a clip from the
Simon: intro. The intro is a clip from it, and there's a character called surge, the characters, paper Bronson Pincho. And I found that bit of trivia about Beverly Hills cop actually, but I didn't know that the film was originally not going to be a comedy at all.
And it was written for Sylvester Stallone. It was a tough Italian American character is going to play the Axel Foley part, and that all fell through for some reason. And then Eddie Murphy was brought. And the whole film became this almost like an ad-lib comedy and well, the amazing chemistry between the actors generates this palpable comradery that you just buy into all the way through the film and it holds your interest.
And the scene in the art gallery is where there's this [00:12:00] side character called search. Who's this camp art gallery manager. I'm fine. My name is sail. And how
Sophie: can I have. Um, yeah, I'm looking for Mrs. Jenny summers start busy today. Maybe be your, give me your name. My name is Axel Foley. And what it's pertaining.
I didn't understand what you said pertaining when it's meaning regarding. Oh, what's it. I'm an old acquaintance of hers. Darnay one mama only running Tammy summer said Mr. is here to see axle for excellent. I smile. Well, axle, Farley's here to see her. He's an older quince. I see you look at this space. Yeah.
I was wondering how much something like this wind for $130,000. Get the fuck out of here. I cannot. It's serious because it's very important. Have you ever sold one of these sound like yesterday to
Simon: a collector? I said it myself.
Ben: That's just such a good scene. Does that character come back in [00:13:00] the second or third one?
And he comes back in the third
Simon: one. Doesn't come back in the second one. And the third film's a bit better. That scene. Isn't quite what I thought it was because Bronson Pincho actually modeled that character on a rude Israeli makeup artists, lady. He met on a previous film.
Ben: That's one that I'm going to have to go back and rewatch.
I haven't watched Beverly Hills Calvin's
Simon: so long and the soundtracks insane. Incredible. It's very literal. I've got a couple of clips. Um, for example, when the heat is on
Sophie: the soundtrack,
Simon: when he's driving around Beverly Hills and he doesn't want to get stopped,
Ben: I love it. So whatever you watch.
Sophie: Yeah. As I said, I've been watching a lot of TV. I finally caught up to better console. So I was the mid-season finale. And I don't know, I feel like I'm no longer in the minority. When I say, I think better call Saul is better than breaking bad and that's my hot day go. I know Ben, you have mixed feelings [00:14:00] about it because you haven't, you've only was season
Yeah. I've only watched the first season. Yeah. But then it's, it's kind of hypocritical because I always say about breaking bad. When I watched it, I really struggled through the first two seasons and then season three for me was when it kicked on. So actually I probably, I need to go back and give it the time I keep telling myself, just go back and do it.
But when I watched breaking bad, I was in uni and I had lots of time to do absolutely nothing. I could binge watch TV.
Sophie: I love it for so many reasons. Generally, I just find the they're writing more, even more sharp eye Vince Gilligan. Yes. Yeah. Which is what I think makes it so good because I feel like you can tell that.
Gilligan took what he learned from breaking bad and just kind of led that evolve for the better in breaking bad. Like you see the cinematography as well. I mean, he's very closely involved with that. It's much more ambitious. Like the camera work is much more inventive
Ben: almost from breaking bad.
Sophie: Absolutely. And then you have came, I mean, the [00:15:00] CoStar in a way who's, satsun in credible. Oh, I don't want to seem like a Valium cause I'm, I'm giving away two months, but see, just like your character progression is much more interesting compared to Skylar, Skylar. Yeah. I felt like the female cartoon breaking, but for the most part were very annoying and I don't see.
In better call Saul. And I find that very refreshing from the beginning. I was say, even from season one, you can see all of this plot lines that have been simmering for years. And then this final season, everything goes, boom, just boom. Like everything explodes.
Simon: Mid-season finale.
Sophie: It's mid-season finale. The end of the end is in August.
So it's taking a break for a few months.
Ben: They did that with the final season of breaking bad as well. They did, I think like four or five episodes, and then they do it basically a cliffhanger, and then it comes back a few months later, it's all filmed and stuff and ready to go, but they just wait and then they release it.
Yeah, that's the time to binge it. That's what I did with breaking birds between the mid season finale and the finale. [00:16:00] I've binged, all five seasons. You
Sophie: guys need to catch up on medical souls. You can, we can do like a breaking bad vertical soul, like final scene kind of break now. Okay. So what's happening in August.
Um, and then yes, I can very quickly. I've been wanting, um, well, I've been cutting up on. Love death and Rabat season three. So it's an anthology is a collection of animated. Short series is great by David Fincher and Tim Miller. It's on Netflix. It has three seasons that season three just came out. Um, I mean, it's no secret that once he's done one came out, I was very vocal about it on my page because I really hated season one.
I found it to be. Problematic. I felt like every, if you were a female character in season one, you were either murdered, assaulted, raped, or fantasized. They were just like, I just had a very hard time watching it and I know. Women and girls on my page had a very similar experience. So I skipped season two, [00:17:00] but I caught up on season three.
And I'm very glad that I did, because I feel like the show really matured nomadically and feels like it really found its true voice. And like it's visually so stimulating it's about the incredible work that has taken place behind the scenes in terms of like animation production, that sort of thing. And yeah, I'm going to rank the episodes on my page.
Um, a couple of favorites have been the very pulse of the myrcene, bad traveling and ninth of the mini dead, which is like brilliant. So yeah. Take out a season, three of love, death and robots.
We asked people on the Instagram page, a quite personal question, but as always, they delivered some incredible answers. When was the last time you saw yourself in a character? Daniella said a few weeks ago when I was the worst person in the world, I saw Julian. And it was like seeing [00:18:00] me that feeling of feeling a little lost in every aspect of your life, but still enjoy the process of it.
Even with mistakes included. And then Emily also said, I watch the worst person in the world a couple of weeks ago. And oh my God, do I ever feel like duly sometimes always wanting more in waiting for life to start. Wow. I do feel those comments. Uh, the worst person in the world did something quite unique in terms of taking that, you know, very classic.
Romcom and really turned it on its head. It's almost like a perverted version of her own income. Um, and I think a lot of people resonate with Julie and her character in particular because C's, self-destructive see. Doesn't like sees very uncomfortable around intimacy. She just wants to have your fun unquote, but at the same time, she's just self sabotaging every step of the way.
And I know I've been there. I don't think I can relate to her right now at this point in my life, but I can see how [00:19:00] that character is very relatable.
Ben: Whenever I find I resonate with someone, it's always the ones that kind of take me by surprise. And they noticed this in some of the comments is that I always think the ones that resonate the most are when you see a character new.
Holy shit. That, that's how I feel. You know, you don't think you're going to feel like that you go and maybe go into the worst person in the world. And you're like, oh, I'm going to see this romcom and stuff. And then halfway through you just ha it snaps nigga. They say something or, you know, they make a speech or whatever.
They have an argument. You go, oh, that's how I've been feeling. And you can just kind of have that that's me. And it's amazing.
Sophie: Right? It's like, you're feeling seen, but you. Expecting to be seen because it's the station regularly or what, what is happening
Ben: right now? Yeah. Films can do this great thing of, they can articulate your feelings in a way that you didn't know was possible.
And that sounds like, kind of what I'm saying is like, they've gone to see that film and they've just gone. Oh shit. That's what I do or that's how I feel. [00:20:00] I've never had that with anything else. Like only with like film and stuff. Cool.
Sophie: Moving on to another comment, Johnny, from, come on, come on. That was my favorite film of 2021.
Johnny was played by Harkin Phoenix. You see. The importance of the relation between an uncle and his nieces or nephews that sweet arrested Cole from two detective season one,
Ben: I saw that one
Sophie: yet. There is something in the poetic hollowness of his character becoming a vessel to be emptied, to be field is every single one of my follow report.
Ben: like it. Yeah. Yeah. It's also risky. Cole's a quite a dark character like that. Like that character in that first season of true to tech, I mean the best thing about that first season of true detective,
Sophie: I can see why you can relate to that character though when you're in a very dark place in your life.
And you're very nihilistic, a way of you. Yeah. The vessel to be empty, to be
Ben: failed. Well, yeah, I [00:21:00] just think that reminded me. He has, I think it's, it's a couple of episodes in, but the episode ends with, uh, McConaughey's character giving this speech in the future to the detectives and it's like a three or four minute monologue.
And it's incredible. Like every time I watch it, I sit there. I literally just sit there in silence and just watch the screen because. Brilliant. We
Sophie: a couple of people talk about Tarley from the parts of being a wallflower. Destin says he and I share the exact same sense of social awkwardness, plastic boots, others needs before.
He's a bit too much and can relate to that. I'd
Ben: say a lot of people can relate to that. Yeah.
Sophie: Pre yang said right now, when I'm watching Southern from the big bang theory, talking about sterilizing, the people who believe in long distance relationships,
Ben: that's intense. It's like you don't relate to a character, but you're like they say. I get it.
Simon: I can not relate to elements of characters. You see, you can see flashes of yourself.
Ben: Sheldon's a difficult character to [00:22:00] relate to because he is kind of self, self awkward, but that statement is, but you
Sophie: can relate to certain moments and certain opinions that he may have.
Ben: Controversial. Yeah, exactly. Like the prestige being Christopher Nolan's best film.
Sophie: Uh, some of my favorites, this one is gonna make me cry, but I'm going to give it a go. Someone said officer K from blade runner 2049. He's literally me besides the literally me meme I've related to officer K deeply in many aspects, one BNQ subtled desperation for genuine love and connection, and he's wanting to be human.
To for his selfless act, even when he's left with nothing, he decided to throw his life away for something bigger, three for his loneliness and the internal, emotional struggle he had as he was empty as a applicant. And the way he suffers in silence, he's one for his place and who he is and what he's.
Plus there were scenes that he really were similar to what happened to me before seeing the movie and as someone also, who [00:23:00] is artistic, I feel deeply for his want of being seen as someone and knowing his place in the. I just can't like, I feel like I just want to like print this, just put it in a poster.
Simon: Right? That's very thoughtful
Ben: piece of writing. That's incredible. We should do that. We should do blade runner 20, 49.
Sophie: Yeah. Even though it doesn't remember the final scene very well. I know. Wait, I remember it. I remember it. I remember this. But it's like, it's not, it doesn't have dialogue. It doesn't have dialogue.
Yeah. I remember it now. Um, and yeah, finally, we also had a couple of people talk about characters from everything everywhere. All at once. Yes. So my friend Dom says he felt like there are from the film, which is weirdly relatable.
Simon: That was easily my favorite
Sophie: scene. Yes. And finally follow her shared with.
Evelyn from everything everywhere. All at once every day, she thought about what could have been confused, barely getting by having a kind and loving partner, but not being able to be [00:24:00] contained with him, not having control over her life. And even though I'm just 20, I knew exactly what she was feeling. Now, I know we should try to cherries, whatever good thing we comes by in our lives.
But even that needs some time getting used to, because of the gap that exists between the good things. That's amazing. I'm still figuring out how to maintain my kindness in those in-betweens of the Withrow all of happiness. And I bet Evelyn would have also had to learn this. Like I am trying. That was profound
Simon: because just a second ago, we were debating how you sum up in that film.
But in fact, that that comment perfectly,
Sophie: it's one of the biggest messages that I took away from the film. It was, it was a really intense experience to have to think of all that. I'll turn off the versions of you. Like, should you have chosen something else at some point in your lives? Literally, like how would my life have turned around if I'd stayed in.
Yeah, it's just [00:25:00] like that film, but yes, I loved it. I never going to fall through the better sliding doors is called Mr. Nobody. And it's with Darren letter and Diana Kruger to 2009. Yeah, yeah. Sold out. It's an incredible film. And if you, if you want like the public stamp of approval, um, I think right now, and I'm the beat has I'm in like 8.2.
Okay. Yeah. So it's, it's just an endless. Proper Dem. So cool. Look
Ben: a message from our
Simon: sponsor. GI
Ben: Jane to can't wait to
Sophie: see yo, Hey yo, what's up. Y'all want some of this without much further ado, Salud dive in to the final scene of the film, everything everywhere all at once. Let's do it. Let's do it. Cool. Um, I feel like before we talk about it, we actually have to somehow try.[00:26:00]
Set up the
Simon: Trevor turns each shimmy, see who can, I can not real truck. She
Ben: will have a go. Well, as I said, Simon, on the way here, my awful synopsis of the film is one woman's tax return goes horribly wrong. Um, and that's a very terrible and vague description of the film. I mean, it kinda, it kinda, it kinda works before we even go into just the generally talking about it.
I have to say it's genuinely, and I don't know if Simon's gonna agree with this, but I think Sophie will. I think it's the best film I've seen so far this year, and I will struggle to see anything better because it's funny. Has amazing. You've talked with this. I need you to do like it, but I thought I had really great matrix style, Kung Fu sequences.
It was bizarre. And then at the heart of it all, is this really amazing, like family drama that is so incredibly emotional, the amount of people sobbing in the cinema at the end of that film. Really? Yeah. I [00:27:00] definitely cried at the end of it. The woman behind me was like, like almost like hyperventilating at the.
Sophie: lost it too. It's just incredible. Let's try to make it more specific though, because I feel like there's a lot more to that. The journey of one daughter, trying to find her way back to her mother in a way, because ultimately that's what it is. Obviously you have the elements of, you know, Waymon the husband and then, you know, the father.
So you have the male figures that are, you know, very strong. Play very strong supporting roles, but ultimately it all comes back to the mother and daughter relationship. But for me, in particular, in why I cried, it was less about Evelyn accepting joy for who sees and that kind of like a bit of a tizzy Venus, like on top of that, it's fine.
But for me, the element of how you show affection as a mom, for me, that's something that fell. Very, it was very relatable for me. And it's [00:28:00] one of the things that I want to talk about because you know how in the beginning, I mean, you mentioned this before Ben, before we started recording about in the beginning, Evelyn goes to joy and she's like, sorry, I'm still you.
Um, you're getting. Remember that coma in the beginning. And I know that common very well. That comment means that common means I care for you. I want you to do better by being better. And for me, that means I'm speaking as my mum right now, for me, that means being an acceptable version of yourself in the society, because when you're accepted, you're saying.
And I want you to be safe.
Ben: Very, it says that at the start of the film, you know, she says to her girlfriend, Becky she's like, listen, if my mom and salts you, it means she likes you. She's not insulting you to be mean she's insulting you because she cares the
Sophie: final scene. See, does show her some affection by saying you should grow your hair out.
That's what cynicism, Becky, there's been [00:29:00] a lot of commentary on the internet around how that's a very accurate portrayal of. Moms and dads and parents more generally in Eastern cultures. And what I want to bring to the table as a different perspective is that this is an exclusive to Eastern cultures and.
I want us to start moving away from generalizing Eastern versus Western, because it's much more nuanced than that. That kind of talk is very prominent in Greek culture as well. So it's much more about the society in the collective and much less about the individual. So for me, like when Sue went from, yeah, you're getting fat to, she said she made some other sort of comment that would also like criticizing her, but it was mud.
So for me, like having that kind of evolution, um, or seeing that as a mom was quite moving for me and I wanted very quickly to read a Reddit comment that I found, what I [00:30:00] noticed was that he created. Change tonally he's referring to the final scene, became less barred and excluded a non-variable warmth from my own lived experience that settled saved would have been enough to show me that my parents were working on being more open and improving themselves.
Personally, my parents doing what Evelyn did would have gone a long way in my relationship with my parents. That part really hit me in the fields. And I thought I always, my mum would have done that. So for me, that kind of. 180, you see from Evelyn, the beginning where she knows she's not showing us her best version of herself and it's wise, he has all of these abilities, right.
Because he's the worst version of herself and is well aware of that. She's not tied to any specific path in life, which is why he's able to vert down. Right. And just become action. Movies are Evelyn like hotdog fingers, Evelyn, like it's exactly that reason, but then not a joke, by the way,
Ben: there is hot dog.
It sounds like a joke, but
Sophie: it is not a [00:31:00] dope people. Like Ethan, it's a university where people have hotdog like fingers
Ben: and play the piano with their feet. Yeah, exactly. Oh my
Sophie: God. Um, but yeah, in the end, in that final scene shows that amazing and realistic, you know, Uh, character progression because it doesn't go from worst mom of the year to mom of the year.
So it goes from F this is where I get to try these, where I get, try and just be here.
Ben: You're right in that kind of confrontation between Evelyn and joy at the end, that really is all joy wants us, wants her to try. Cause you can't ask someone to completely change. And if she completely changed, she wouldn't be being true to herself.
That'd be completely opposite of what the film is trying to do, I guess. Yeah. Essentially at the
Simon: end of the. It's Evelyn. The mum deciding that actually her original universe was absolutely fine and life is what you make of it and it's how you approach it. But I don't know if the film really gave enough reason for [00:32:00] how Evelyn came
I would say couple of things stood out for me. The first one is obviously the bagel, the, the, everything bagel. If you're a member towards the answer of the bagel, essentially, it starts from being an everything bagel where Joy's last job who actually here older ego in the multiverse, it's worse. He drops everything like your hopes, your dreams, her report cards, you name it.
Like all of it is there, but. If you remember the bagel turns into this super massive black hole in the news reference supermassive black hole. Um, their reveal towards the end is that the purpose of the, you know, black hole, you know, bagel. Isn't to destroy the universe. Isn't to destroy Evelyn isn't to destroy anyone, but what Joby wants to do to this wreck herself, because he thinks everything is meaningless.
And when Evelyn sees that, that was one of the first turning points. I go through to think, oh shit, maybe I need to start trying.
Ben: And [00:33:00] then she reflects on that with her own dad. Like she even says to him, why did you let. Like the biggest question I have is when I went to move to America with Waymond, why did you let me go?
And that's the whole thing. When joy goes to go away, that's what she's doing. She's doing what her dad didn't do and saying, I'm not, I'm not going to let you go. I don't care. And that's the whole speech that she makes is I don't care how difficult it is. I don't care that we fight. I don't care that maybe life isn't great that we have this laundromat and it's not everything we thought it will be.
And I'm not an action hero, or I'm not a hibachi chef, but this version, as you said, so that version of her as the one that you. And it's important that she doesn't let that go because that's what
Sophie: makes her happy, which is kind of what breaks the intergenerational curse in a way, and starts to break the cycle of like being an emotionally unavailable and just, you know, a bit of a, you know, the kid really as a parent.
So when that reveal happens, where. Job is like, well, actually wanted to kill myself because everything sucks. Evelyn is trying to, it's trying to see her nihilistic point of view. And then if he remembers it [00:34:00] kind of smashes up, every universe is in, you know, how she kind of breaks into like a thousand.
Pieces in a way. And it is a down moment where your husband has that, you know, probably the best scene. Yeah. We'll see. That's the epiphany
Ben: I've written the quote down because I think it's, I think it's probably the most important quote I've heard in the film in a very long time. And that it's the only thing I do now is that we have to be kind, please be kind, especially when we don't know what's going on.
That is what everyone in the world needs right now. Just that sense of like, even when you don't know what's going on. Yeah. It's scary. And yeah, you D like, you might be confused, but you don't know what everybody else is going through and just be kind. And that's why, you know, that fight scene on the stairs.
All these people want to kill her, but she goes, well, the reason they're angry is this and that. And she, like, you know, is kind to all of them. If a president said that if Barack Obama had said that when he was running for office, everyone will be like, that's like, yes, we can. That's like this amazing quote, but it's in the.[00:35:00]
Mad multi-verse film that comes out in the wake of another mad multi-verse film. That's when I cried in the set, but that's when I just lost that. I was like,
Sophie: oh, what's I feel like this is what Evelyn took from that scene. And then he said, despite everything I choose to be in this universe, I choose to be here with you because I feel like at that moment, it was the very first time that actually took a second to be pre.
Right then just listen to what her daughter had to say, because I feel like at the last moment she was hearing what joy was saying, but she wasn't listening, which is very different. And we still haven't talked about the actual final scene. So let's try to break it down. We can actually
Ben: get back to the tax
There you go. So the movie ends where it started, right? So. These are all phase from the young families, tucks all date. This time, Becky Joy's girlfriend drops off the family. We see Evelyn showing some affection for her by saying that you [00:36:00] should soon grow her hair out. We said that was very funny, uh, inside the building Wayman heads towards the bathroom before their meeting, Evelyn shows affection to him as well with a big case and a hug.
And at the address desk, Evelyn's mind briefly wanders off to another unit. Before he turned into the moment saying, sorry, what did you say? Yeah. And
Ben: that's when the film, it's interesting because obviously we talked about Dr. Strange and the last one, and actually, there's almost like a bit of a comparison between the two ending scenes of, you know, in Dr.
Strange, the remnants of using the book of whatever camera, what it's called the dark hole. Yeah. He has the third eye and that's the remnant of that. But then at the end of everything everywhere, we see that from that point where she just collides all of her universes to see every kind of, one of ourselves, there's still that remnant there.
So. It's still there. You know, the still, I mean, unknowingly, it gives the possibility of a sequel, which I really held. More everywhere all at once, which without that they would do. [00:37:00] I think it's just lovely that the film ends with her because that's what happens when they first go to the IRS in kind of the middle of the film.
And she's sorry, what we were saying, and it's just kicks on from that. I thought that was really nice.
Sophie: That's the perfect way. When the opening scene is almost like, kind of goes back to the final scene and the other way around, I think that's one of the more beautiful ways of showing character evolution.
Right. And in growth, get, and for me, that final line in particular really made me think about. The beginning of the film, because I was thinking in the beginning, if you're a member, Evelyn was pretending that CIF was paying attention. He was paying attention. He was paying attention. Now, like in the end is a very first time what he's actually trying to come back to, you know, the moment it kind of sews a struggle, but also the beauty of keeping yourself grounded and in the moment.
And we all know how hard it is right there. Just being in the moment, not getting distracted and just like, you know,
Simon: the mum's got the world on her shoulders. [00:38:00] She's got the stress literally.
Sophie: She could wander off to another multi-verse and like, I feel like if you think about it, we all have multiverses in our minds.
Sometimes we'd just come up with, you know,
Ben: versus the rest of, and they dream about what would happen if I did this or what would have happened at what my life looked like. If I did that, why did I say that? Or, yeah, you were saying Sophie bet, like moving from Greece, you know? Loads of points in everyone's lives.
I mean, we, maybe if people, people can message in to let us know, like if they ever think about that, like, what was I, I was thinking about it. Like, I had a chance to go to university in Scotland when I was like 20 and I just didn't do it. And I'm like, what would I, what would life look like if I had done that, then
Sophie: this, even the landing isn't perfect because it's not like in the final scenes is like, oh yeah, I'm fully present.
I'm a mindful Deadeye now it's. It's still imperfect. It's stealing. Perfect. It shows you that is a very first time that is putting in the effort. It's the very first time she's engaged. It's awkward. I [00:39:00] mean, all of us are trying, it
Ben: goes back to what you said of like she's not mom of the year. Yeah. But she's trying like, it just harks back to that thing of.
You know, she's never going to change. There's still elements of Avalon that are always going to be there. You might drift off every now and again, but she's trying.
Sophie: Oh, and speaking of mindfulness, I started I'm rereading one of the most popular books in Buddhism readings from Pema Chodron's is like quite big in that space when things fall apart, it's your book.
And there is this line in the, in the book. That's. That's where you are. That's where you start, which is like, it kind of took me back to the other film as in, just think of it, think of them now, think of them now and just try every single moment to just stay like us three. Right now we are in my kids and we're doing this as opposed to just drifting away thinking about like episode six.
No, let's try to like talk about [00:40:00] Evelyn right now that kind of met the feeling of struggle of being in the moment, which is hard. One of the things that I want to talk about is that the tone of the final scene. So we can see that in the end, the tone of the film has changed. Everyone feels and looks more calm, and one can argue that, you know, the resolution wouldn't have been possible if it weren't for Waymond.
And I know like Ben, as you said, you have strong feelings about him in particular, but I think he deserves an
Ben: F I mean, I think they all deserve Oscars because the performances in the film are fun. Tastic.
Sophie: When you think of his Carter in particular, you have, you have Evelyn enjoy that have used the cynicism, pessimism, even depression to cope with life, but he chose kindness and understanding every step of the way.
What did you make of his character? I
Ben: think one of the reasons why I kind of felt so emotional when he talked about that is because. How hard that is and [00:41:00] how you kind of try and put yourself in his shoes because he gets shit throughout the movie. Up until that point, especially that version of Waymond takes the abuse and like is kind of there for the beating in a way.
And then when he says that you realize is like, well, I put myself in that position because that's his super power, you know, that's like, I think he even says that he's like, that's my power. This is what I
Simon: do. But you also, you don't know how happy he really is. He doesn't really give away much. He just kind of puts a smile on.
And stoically powers through.
Sophie: I don't think he's using kindness as an avoidance coping mechanism. I think he's choosing kindness, which I feel like the entire film is about choice. You know,
Ben: uh, when he speaks to Jamie Lee curses, his character is like, you know, you just don't know what's going on, you know, you know, be kind to be because you don't know what's going, you don't know what their circumstances are.
And I guess. You know, Evelyn's whole journey is to actually be able to open up to [00:42:00] both of them in a way to be able to have that connection that made her want to leave with him and go to America and, or, you know, not as we see in her, you know, she
Simon: resents him for encouraging it to make that decision.
Yeah. Fulfilled her in the way that he promised her it works. Yeah.
Sophie: That's part of it for sure. Yeah. And I think in the beginning we are witnessing the dissolution of the marriage. Right. Like we see them at their worst period. Um, like as we, yeah. And then it's almost like it works in reverse where they, you know, the more, the film progresses, the better the relationship gets in a way, because of the things and you know, how they kind of, well, I mean,
Ben: it seems her turning point really is when she sees herself on the universe where.
Michelle Yeoh really, because actually there's a brilliant scene where when she first goes into that universe, we see lots of clips from her life. And it's basically, it's just all like press footage of Michelle Gayle's career, which I thought was really cool. And there's like, I think this is like footage of her and like crouching tiger, hidden [00:43:00] dragon and stuff, which is, I thought was brilliant.
But in that universe where she's not with him in that confrontation that they have in the alleyway that makes her kind of, that's where she kind of clicks and realizes. Cause she just say to him when she comes back from that universal, like, oh, I could have been, you know, she talks about, I could have been this, if, you know, if I hadn't gone with you and it would have been able to be that.
But then again, you know, it's almost like that's the tipping point of the film. If she gets to that point where she, she thinks, you know, the film is on this trajectory of like fucking hell, there's all these different, amazing places where I could have been, and I could have done. And in the movie it's kind of in the middle, like you get a credit roll in the middle of the film and then it turns, and then it starts going back in the direction of her.
Yeah, but of course there are obviously there are all of these other universes out there, but just because they look brilliant because of the scenario that I'm in, but they're not necessarily the happiest than, you know, a universe where I'm not with Wayman may be isn't the best thing in the world because I don't have joy and I don't have, you know, the rest of these amazing things.
To me, it feels like there's that noise tipping point, the mid, like they have film arcs really nicely [00:44:00]
Simon: at the end of the. She's she's saying maybe we should not be together. You know, we bring out the worst in each of her. I
Sophie: found that seemed to be honestly problematic, but I don't think it worked very well like that scene in the car park, outside of the laundromat, because yeah, because I feel like at the end of this scene was amazing, but at the beginning it was a bit awkward.
You're right. Because. Actually we're a bit toxic for others. I feel like I should take a break and then
Simon: yeah, there's going to be this resolution. I say the opposite.
Sophie: I agree. And then everyone's like, yeah, but I couldn't be anywhere right now, but I choose to be with you. And then he's like, okay, cool. Let's let's give it a go.
So I thought the dialogue, there was a bit awkward. I agree with you.
Simon: I needed that as an, in, into the final scene to have the.
Sophie: That scene was needed. Uh, what I felt like was probably unnecessary what Joey's saying, well, we're a bit toxic towards other, maybe
Simon: it's about the mum misinterpreting all the lessons that she's learned.
And at first she's like, all of this means that actually I'm [00:45:00] bad for my daughter. And the best thing I can do for her is to not be with it because I'm making
Ben: miserable because she lets her get in the car to get them. She lets her get in the car and then she goes, and that's when she talks about it kind of comes back to her.
My dad, let me go. I'm not going to let you go. Yeah.
Simon: And then they get into the proper discussion of how they can actually co-exist and be more supportive of each other. Yeah. And I think
Ben: that's the bit where you're talking about where like, you know, Waymond almost interrupts and she's like, no, let her finish because it's really important to, for Evelyn, for joy to get that Wayman
Simon: thinks that Evelyn's just being harsh again on joy.
Yeah. And actually Joey
Ben: wants to hear that they need to hear it. It's almost like, you know, tension builds up with someone you love in your life. I just love you, but we just, let's, let's tough. Like let's just share with one another for like five minutes and then you just always get all the steam out and they kind of get all of that out and they just air all the dirty laundry they're in, in front of the laundromat carpet.
Sophie: Well, it's only makes it more important to go back to the point of one kindness, but [00:46:00] also how it manifests in the, in the context of a mother and daughter relationship. Because for the most part, not just daughters, but if we're speaking about joy, Kids mostly want to be seen and in extension to that, they want to be accepted.
Right. So when Evelyn says, my love for you is unconditional. Because at the end of the day, I could be anywhere. I could be nanny multiverse right now, and I could choose any other version of you. But actually I choose to be the one that's right here. That's in front of me. So you don't have to be any other version of yourself.
It's what gives joy permission to actually live here. And pursue the relationship with, you know, her girlfriend and also, you know, we had that, you know, a bit of a funny scene where Evelyn goes to hear that and see, it was the first time that she accepted like actually accepted and supported her daughter of being queer.
Right. And in front of your dad, that was the moment where she kind of broke [00:47:00] that intergenerational,
Ben: you know, because again, that goes back to the first scene. Joy introduces Becky to her granddad enjoys Chinese. Isn't great anymore. And he says, every time I see you, it gets worse. And she can't remember the word for girlfriend and Evelyn interrupts.
This is Becky Joy's good friend. And then at the end of the film, Evelyn interrupts and girls, this is Becky. Becky is joyous girlfriend. Yes.
Sophie: Okay. I think we sold the ending. You guys, I, I do want to ask one final question, which I kind of asked you before, like before we started recording, I know it's a difficult one, but, um, I think it's gonna mean a lot to our listeners.
So assuming. Create a bagel yourselves where you can add your hopes, your dreams, your regrets, your fears, your anything, your trophies, what would you put in it?
Ben: It's probably a pizza bagel, but that's, that's, that's, that's neither here [00:48:00] nor there. I mean, the toppings, the toppings are two college dropouts. My relationship for move to the UK.
Even moving to the UK more. So my relationship was being like Irish and, and how Arland has been, like, Ireland's definitely on the bagel. So there's a bit of green dashed in there. So. And emotional bagel, I would say as well, sometimes that I won't mention private even a little bit like harder than, than mozzarella pepperoni and a, I might have some
Simon: them, some Nutella, some banana pennies.
Ben: I tell them banana pennies,
Simon: a bagel, some nineties movies like home. Uncle buck.
Sophie: Oh, spicy. Oh yeah.
Simon: Really edgy, edgy stuff. Lots of music. Lots of rave culture. I was
Sophie: going to say, yeah, that is such a, I mean, has always been such a big part of your life, you know? Yeah. Naughty
Ben: raves, raves.
Sophie: Well, I feel like [00:49:00] my bagel has been influenced by the film because.
I told you earlier, the first thing that came to mind is being a good daughter. It's I feel like it shows very clearly how I was raised and you know, what are the things that come to mind first? So like, I'm a good daughter,
Simon: but you can't just say that without defining what that means to you.
Sophie: Good daughter, to me means making my parents proud.
I feel like my decision to move to London has been a big one, very life defining in a way, my writings, I would say my healing, my imperfections. My femininity. I know the patients or my friends, your
Ben: bagels more conceptual than mine. Yeah.
Sophie: Oh, I'm going to say the last thing that goes in my bagel, my high school crash, who I go to hookup with about a decade later, that happens
Ben: if you're out there.
Sophie: Well, it happened a few years ago, but. It definitely [00:50:00] goes to my bigger, because it sounds a big Wayne, so it's a big way. It's like, yeah, you're trying to think like, this is a trophy. Like I can just put it in the shelf. It's just like yep. Bucket list kind of thing goes to my bagel. Yeah. Because like the bagel is on this really bad.
Ben: No, it's good. It's good. Bad. And
Sophie: everything is good. Yeah. Just like everything that you, the part of you have changed your life. I mean, so he didn't change my life, but you know, I feel like they changed the life of the 15 year old. Me though. Crap.
Ben: The people who to say, I feel like it did change his life. I thought that was where that was going to, I was like, didn't change mine, but my God he's been, he's not doing the same sentence.
I mean the same, same.
Sophie: I hope he's not
cool. So I think this is it guys. The next final scene we will be talking about is from top gun [00:51:00] Maverick. I have to say the highway
Ben: to the danger zone. Tell
Sophie: me boy.
Simon: That's a masculine guitars.
Ben: I can't wait if the shredding and Dr. Strange was bad enough. I can't make it for some masculine man top and guitar.
How homoerotic is it going to be, man, if you've seen Myles sellers, mustache looks, oh,
Sophie: I have to say, I felt that the score is amazing. You should listen to it. I mean, you can't, I mean, you will know. I didn't like the first one. So I'm just going to go on record and say that, but yeah, I am hearing that my brain is really, really good.
So looking forward to seeing it and. Talking about the final scene with YouTube. Also make sure to subscribe to our podcast, right? Wherever you're listening. And if you loved our filings in breakdown or Benz heartaches, please rate a review, bad financing on Spotify or apple podcasts. Just do it. It only takes a second.
Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back with Tommy boy in a [00:52:00] couple of weeks. Goodbye.
Ben: Cause you like it. Did you like that? Did I like it? I loved it. I
Sophie: had no idea. Milk
Ben: a cat. I have nipples. Greg, could you milk me? Good morning.
Sophie: Oh, and in case I don't
Ben: see you. Good afternoon. Good evening. And good night.