35 years! Full Metal Jacket was released 35 years ago, can you guys believe? In this episode, we’re beyond excited to break down the ending of Stanley Kubrick’s 1987 war epic (with the help of your voice notes). But that’s not all.
We spend the first half of the episode talking about:
- Emma Thompson’s latest offbeat comedy sex-positive film “Good Luck To You, Leo Grande”
- Our reactions to and predictions for “The Boys” Season 3
- Ewan McGregor’s not so greatest hits (we still love him<3)
- Shocking movie trivia you shared with us
If you want to head straight to the final scene analysis, please skip to 31:57. We hope you enjoy the discussion as much as we loved having it.
Finally, a very special shoutout to the lovely listeners who shared their thoughts with us (Chris, Tim & Christopher).
Shoot your thoughts or suggestions over a voice note:
- Head to https://thatfinalscene.com/voicemessage & record your voice note on the website
- Or text us your voice note to (+44)7514969453 on WhatsApp
Films overheard at the episode: Good Luck To You, Leo Grande, Hercules, The Lion King, Scenes of Sexual Desire, Young Adam, Angels & Demons, The Ghost Writer, Portrait of A Lady on Fire, Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, The Dark Knight, Mission: Impossible - Fallout, Pulp Fiction, Full Metal Jacket
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Sophie: Well, hello and welcome to another episode of the bad final scene podcast. My name is Sophie and I'm your host and I'm joined by my co-host
Yeah, just one of us this week. No, no, Simon, this week we are one man down. We are, yeah. Simon has disappeared off to a far, far away. I actually dunno where he is. I was gonna ask, do you know where he is? No, I haven't said I haven't. We we've been told Simon's on holidays. We don't know where. What if he's, I'm guessing he's on like a metal detector holiday or something like that, you know, and people go away and they hire metal detectors and just troll beaches, probably doing that in like Sardinia or something.
Sophie: It's interesting because he did just text us, um, good luck with our recording. Yes, he does. But at the same time, I have a feeling that he's not telling us the full story. No, I
Ben: don't think so. Definitely not. I mean, Simon's definitely a man of mystery something I've come to know [00:01:00] over my time knowing I'm sure, you know, as all selfie, but yeah.
Yeah. We dunno where he is. So it's just the two of us today.
Sophie: Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm sure he's got it to be missing the episode. And one thing that I wanted to clarify from the get go is that I know in the last episode we did say we're gonna talk about night on earth. Oh yeah. Yes. Um, but we wanted Simon for this one, so you have a bit more time to watch it and please do.
I, I dunno if you got the chance to watch it just yet, but I just, no, I am nails to watch it yet. Yeah. Win a writer. Just incredible in it. So do watch it. Um, in any case they were gonna talk about a film from a director that I know is a top favorite within the community. And that is no other than Stanley Kubrick or Kubrick Don DMAs.
I think they're both correct.
Ben: I would say Kubrick, but I dunno. I feel like people DMAs said it's Kubrick or something.
Sophie: It, I feel like, well, I feel like it's both. I think I read that. How can it [00:02:00] be both? I, I did some reaches because we got some voice notes where like mostly Americans that call him Kubrick.
But I think Kubrick is what we call him over here in England. Yes. Um, but I can't confirm anyway. I think they're both fine. Um, in any case, the director's filmography is actually quite famous for. It's final scenes. I think that there are quite a few directors that don't care as much about the ending of their films.
More, more about the journey like David Lynch, for example. But I feel like with cuber, it's always been very intentional the way he was gonna end something. So I'm really excited to dive in. So the movie we're gonna talk about today is full metal jacket, the 90, 87 war epic. And it was actually the, also the.
Final film that Kubrick got to see [00:03:00] released during his lifetime. Oh, okay. He also did eyes wide sat, but he didn't actually get to the ending of
Ben: the, so preview that you were asking for there, there's a bit of preview that I didn't know, throw back to the Instagram
Sophie: page. There you go. Um, so there is a lot of talk about when it comes to that films ending, but yeah, as I said, we also receive a few voice notes, so we're quite excited to get to that.
But before we do that, let's talk films and TV shows. Ben, what have you been watching?
Ben: Uh, so I'm still watching the boys, which is, uh, which is ticking along at pace to, uh, this week's episode, which will be out by the time we've released it. But it's the, uh, episode that everybody's been talking about since they announced season three, which is the hero orgasm episode.
Uh, which is gonna be interesting with the sounds of things. Uh, and I've been watching lb one, which I finished today, which I really enjoyed. Uh, people might come at me for that. I dunno. I don't think so. I think it's been pretty well received. And then I saw, um, on top of watching FMJ for the [00:04:00] podcast, uh, I saw good Laia grant on a Monday night, which was pretty awesome.
I really enjoyed it. Yeah. What did you think? I. yeah, I just really enjoyed it. It was just, it's a really kind of, it's like, it has a really positive message. It's a really nice film. I think the performances in it are brilliant. Like both Emma Thompson and, uh, is it Dar McCormick? Yeah. Are both fantastic.
Nice to see a bit of Irish representation in there as well. Uh, I thought he was great. Um, what do you think of his
Sophie: accent? He's actually Iris,
Ben: right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I Don I don't think, I feel like he's not like hamming it up or anything like that. He's not like it's subtle the, yeah, exactly. It's nice.
Um, and yeah, I thought they were both fantastic. I mean, it, it says a lot for like minimalist filmmaking considering the whole thing takes place over four meetings in a hotel room, and then also the restaurant of a hotel. It like fantastic. It's all you needed. It didn't need to be bouncing around the place from like her place, this place to that place.
It was really well done. And it just tells this really kind of nice story about, you know, , you know, [00:05:00] acceptance of yourself and, you know, and Emma Thompson and what, and what, like what she's looking for after the death of her husband and then, um, Leo's kind of background and who he is. Mm-hmm, how she goes, digging into that as a mm-hmm and, and how that, and how that turns around and how that's such, you know, how that's such a private thing for him.
Like that's scene in, in, um, in meeting three where they have that kind of confrontation is brilliant, you know, it's, it's so good. And you can, like, I've never seen more real backtracking from an argument, you know, like you could automatically see no, no, I, no, it's me too. And yeah, I just, me and my partner went to see and I just thought it was great.
I just, cause I know you've you've you saw it quite a while ago. Didn't you? The film festival? Yeah, I saw
Sophie: I at Berlin a few months back. Nice Berlin. Um, and it was a standout film for me at the festival. I just thought when you think about it, it's a story about taboo in a way, isn't it? Oh yeah, because at the, at the end of the day for us, haven't heard of the film.
The film is about. [00:06:00] Aging widow let's say, is, is Emma Thompson at your like late sixties or early seventies? Maybe? Yeah, I think so. Um, and she realize has never had an orgasm, so she hires a sex worker to do the deed. Uh, and this is how the film kind of starts. And as you said, like the film for the most part is almost like single set location.
Yeah. Because it was all during the pandemic. So they had to kind of get creative, which I feel like one of the good things coming out of the pandemic is that we look back and we see all of the creative ways filmmakers had to, um, approach filmmaking, which is interesting. And the reason I like it was because it's the kind of taboo that I'd never seen before in a film that.
Kind of commercial is like, mean let's face it. I mean, you have Emma Thompson. It's not like, you know, an indie like movie coming out of nowhere with the, no,
Ben: I mean, she's, she's the, she's MIS trench [00:07:00] people in the new Matilda movie, you know, she's got exactly, she's got like an Oscar behind her. She's got a lot of
Sophie: star power.
Yes, exactly. And it's great to see someone like her still taking risks. Like at this point she has nothing to prove. Like people like her, like Meryl street, like they have nothing to prove, but still like, she's, she also, I dunno if I'm spoiling a bit too much, but she has a nude scene. Like, yeah, he goes full Toronto,
Ben: Meryl Streep in, uh, and don't look up.
Don't look up. Yeah, there you go.
Sophie: It's like to normalize this kind of thing is, um, is interesting, but also like, yeah. To your point to on the sex worker's side, like Dar Dar McCormack's, uh, character. I don't remember, like, what is his actual name? Do we get to
Ben: find that his name is his name is Connor. I don't think you find out his, I don't think you find out his second name.
You just, you just know that she, she calls him Connor. Yes. And that's like the snap for him. That's when he's like breach of privacy now.
Sophie: Yeah. I, I was very surprised to see that they went there when it comes to [00:08:00] like all of the reasons you end up becoming a sex worker, like, what are the reason, what are your motivations?
Like, what are your gratifications out of like doing what you're doing? Because I feel like I. to be honest, like entering the film, I was like, oh, we're only gonna see her side. It's gonna be like a feminist film about her. Yeah. Like he's gonna be very stereotypical. And I was kind of pleasantly surprised that we went into here much more of a give and take.
Yeah. Yes. For sure. So yeah, it's out in the UK. I have no idea like what's happening in terms of rest of the world really is date wise. I have a feeling it's out in the us. Um, yeah, but it's gonna be a fairly big release. So keep an eye on it. Good luck to Yulia
Ben: Grande. Definitely go and see it. It's, it's brilliantly funny as well for, for a film that has, you know, a lot of, um, serious notes in it.
It's tremendously awkwardly funny at times in a really kind of honest [00:09:00] way. You know, it's not poking fun at a woman who, you know, as she talks about in the film has never had an orgasm before and has never explored her sexuality in that way. It does it in a really kind of. Uh, subversive. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and the soundtrack is fantastic. There's a couple of, there's a couple of tracks in it that just work. There's a, like, there's a, there's a dance scene in it and it's just, it's perfect. Like it's so I, I, like, I always appreciate, you know, good mu uh, good music in a film. So I was, uh, pleasantly, um, surprised by kind of how good the soundtrack was.
And yeah, as I say, it even just looked like for, for a pan, you know, a film shot over the pandemic in one room, it looks really nice as well. Like we clean, you know, it doesn't really have a kind of like a kind of hazy, like indie feel to it. Like it feels just, yeah, really nice and clean. I did think at the start, it doesn't really look like London.
That's the one thing I would've said when he, when he leaves the coffee shop at the start, he looks like he's in like Berlin or like Amsterdam or something like that has a bit more of a, kind of a European vibe. But the only, the only indication that you get to it being in London is that it looks out the window at one point and [00:10:00] there's batters E power station.
I was like, Ooh, I wonder where that's supposed to be. But, um, yeah, that would be, that would be my one critique of overall a fantastic film. Yeah. You know, I really hope Emma Thompson gets some award nods awards, um, nods for it next year, because you definitely deserve and, you know, dial McCormick as well. I thought, you know, as a kind of breakout performance from him into kind of film and stuff, obviously he's just been in, um, I think he's just been in piggy blinders.
I'm almost certainly has been mm-hmm um, but this like feels like. Puts him on that kind of puts him out there as, um, as a really kind of strong talent to have to have and stuff and listen, like all good young actors he'll end up in the MCU eventually. I'm sure that'll be the next step, but, um, yeah, you could be the
Sophie: next Hercules.
Ben: I mean, yes. I've that, that we should talk about that. Yeah. Why is guy Richie directing Hercules?
Sophie: Uh, well, he did a lain, didn't he? I think, I think so.
Ben: Yeah. So, so exactly. Why is, why is guy Richie directing Hercules?
Sophie: I, I don't know what kind of, I don't [00:11:00] know what has driven him to do animation films. All of a sudden, um, kids, movies, the kids, movies, kids, movies, I'm excited.
Like it's one of those things where like, I don't actually, I don't care, but I also do. Yeah.
Ben: I, the thing is I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna get my help, so about, because I have these kind of live action remakes, you know, when I heard that, um, Donald Glover was playing Simba and the lion king re like, I was like, oh my God, fantastic.
Sophie: You know, it's kind of like Laster as a, because which
Ben: I think is the problem is that it it's, it's exciting because like, I remember watching Hercules as a kid and loving that film, but. I love that film. So to then kind of tr like, are you remaking it, is it a retelling? Is it an homage? Like, you know, what is it?
I think these live, the problem is their live action remakes, isn't it. And you know, you don't need to remake them live action. They're perfect as they are as, as animations. [00:12:00] Um, but yeah, I just guy Richie doing it. I just don't. I just not wouldn't have not what I, would've not the name I would've put, I probably would've pulled outta the hat to, to do Hercules.
Yeah. But yeah, we'll see.
Sophie: When you think of Hercules, like the original one, which is one, probably my favorite, like Disney. Yeah. Animated film, because it has a kind of twisted and dark humor that you see a lot in guy Read's film.
Ben: Is it Ja? Is it James James Woods that plays had. In the original, I think I have no idea it could.
I think it is. And he's just like that Haitis car Haiti is fantastic.
Sophie: I would love for Disney to give him the creative agency to do the guy thing, because I feel like, as you said, said
Ben: it in east London, you know, Brad, Charlie, Hannah, Charlie. Yeah. Charlie hunter with his bizarre voice can come in and play some weird character.
Sophie: I could see him. I dunno if he's stole enough. I mean, if you do set
Ben: it there, there's always some random Irish character in those one. So Dar McCormick, there you go. He's got, he's got his part. There you go.
Sophie: 100%. Like we're fun casting right now.
Ben: So, you know, who would you, but who would you, if you're, if [00:13:00] you're, I mean, apart from Charlie, hun, who do you know what it could be guy to think about it?
Guy rich likes him enough that it could be him, but I'm trying to think who, who, who can I see? I mean, obviously Danny, DeVito's back as, um, oh my God. I can't remember the character name. That's gonna really annoy me, but, um, Yeah, I'm trying to think of who you could, who you kind of, who are the like hot, young actors on the scene of the minute he has Hercules will ter maybe.
Oh, that's a good, see, he's gonna be just off the back of guardians of the
Sophie: galaxy. Wait, I think they need, they need someone massive. Don't they? I mean, he could be,
Ben: I feel, I feel like he's getting, he's probably
Sophie: getting, oh, you could getting beef. That's true. What
Ben: is that for the characters that he's playing in?
Um, guardians of galaxy in the, in the, in the new one. So I feel like he could be, that's true, absolutely ripped to shreds for that.
Sophie: I have a feeling that they're gonna go for a lesser known actor. Yeah. If, if, if they're doing the allergen thing, I don't know. But, um, I would, I would love to say basically if they are to redo that sort, like yeah.
Redo that sort of [00:14:00] film, they need to do something drastically different. Yeah. Because with lion king, it wasn't like, it was a bad film. If it was a standalone, you'd be like, yeah, it's an okay. Film. Yeah. But because they did nothing, it's almost like a shot for shot. Yeah.
Ben: You're doing a shot for shot remake.
Like that weird that that's useless. Remember that weird Vince VA psycho shot for shot remake. Like yeah.
Sophie: That's useless. Don't yeah. Just do what GTA Wick's trying to do with Barbie. I think it looks ridiculous, but it's probably gonna
Ben: do something more interesting. Loving that photo of flying. Goling my God.
In with the blonde hair, is it in the place beyond the Pines that he has blonde hair as well? And like that weird, those weird kind of prison tats,
Sophie: blonde suits him. I have to
Ben: say. Everything suits everything gorgeous. Yeah, it does. That's fair. But what have you been watching? So that obviously that's what I've been watching.
Sophie: have you been watching? Well, I was gonna say, I wanna go back to the boys very quickly because I have a lot of thoughts. Okay. I don't know where the, the season is going. I didn't like the last episode. Well, the last, well, the episode before the hero orgasm, because we were yeah. Recording a week prior.
[00:15:00] Yeah. I just feel like it's getting very bitter and very pessimistic and like butcher it just like, and Huey, like that kind of do like, I really don't like where this is going. Then you have Starlight, like having to deal with her abuser, like. He would being a big kid, like a toxic boyfriend, but he's using the rapper of a nice guy.
And I don't know if I were her. I would like here, he would be out that door.
Ben: by now Huey's needed to be out that door for a while in that. Yeah. He's annoying. He's I really, I really, I really like Jack Wade. I think he's great. Yeah. And I think he's been great as Huey from the, from the, or off, but I, as you say, I think the last couple of episodes, especially where he's using the, like the.
That was the, the kind of like compound V that wears off and his whole thing of like, oh, you have to be the one that saves you is like the toxic masculinity has never been Huey's thing. I get that this may be a bit of fallback from the fact that he couldn't do anything when his last girlfriend died, but even still, you know, she
Sophie: should be using that as his superpower.
Like going back to everything [00:16:00] everywhere at once. Like use his kindness and use like his way of even,
Ben: she says that to him, she's like, I don't need, like, I don't need a superhero. I need Huey. That's who I need. And that's what he's been really good at the last couple of seasons, but yeah. Yeah. I dunno. I feel like it's.
Yeah, it's getting a bit listless. Um, I did like the Jenson ale stuff.
Sophie: I was gonna say that was the highlight, like his monologue. And I like the fact that they introduced him where he kind of sets up his kind of tragedy as in like, I've been pumped with poison for the past, you know, like decades. And I really loved you.
He says to his, uh, Laura's character. I don't remember her name. So I realized that crim in something, oh, there you go. Uh, so I like
Ben: how something, but you know, you know,
Sophie: you know what I mean? You know what I mean? You know what you're talking about? Um, I like how they set it up and he was so good in that scene.
So that was the one thing that I'm quite interested to see and how they're kind of probably gonna use him as a weapon, uh, against Homeland. It'll be
Ben: [00:17:00] interesting. And I think the, the, from this season, and I think actually since her introduction, I think Karen Fugi heart's character has just become.
Probably the strongest in it. And, and one of like one of the, one of the ones that you gravitate her to the most hurt and Frenchy, and like, I like that that relationship is getting, obviously they had that weird. Bizarre kind of show tunes, dancing, which was, I kind of skipped through. I was a little bit like, this is just going a little bit too, kind of crazy, like comic book, weird for my, like, even though listen, you know, I read comic books and I love them, but that was just a little bit too much for me.
But I think her story arc is getting a lot better. The fact that she now doesn't heal, doesn't have our powers, I think is really interesting to see, to see where they take that. But I feel like they've introduced a lot of like peripheral characters in this season as well. That also they're not doing much with like the, the little Nina character with Frenchy.
Like how much more are we gonna get from that? Yeah. You know, it kind of feel, it kind of feel, it kind of feels a bit predictable. Now I could be proven massively wrong here, but it kind of feels predictable of like, she doesn't have our powers anymore. Little Nina [00:18:00] explodes this to get Frenchy to do something, you know, all this kind of stuff.
Cuz she clearly wants Frenchie to be like her Hitman again or whatever it is. And I think that's where we're going. It feels like it feels slightly kind of predictable in that way. Now maybe I'm totally wrong, but.
Sophie: Which is annoying because like, we were about to get that moment, like between chemical and Franzy and then we didn't, and then we didn't like, that was taken away from us.
Like we were waiting for this woman for so long. And then also you have a train don't even get me started on this guy. Like he's such a train. It's a Mor the deep as well. Like there's so like hate character. There's Mor like both of them absolutely
Ben: hate the deep. It's just absolutely terrible. Yeah. I'm sorry.
Sophie: Yeah. Um, so I know I sound too harsh, like deep down. I still love the show deep. I deep, just deep down. Want deep, deep, down, deep down. I just need to see something more and, okay. I'm gonna say this once. If the show runners, if the boys are listening, I just need one thing from you just have mothers smell, kill soldier, boy.
Like that's like, that's what we need for this show to be redeemed because they didn't give us the [00:19:00] chemical, like killing storm front moment in season two. So we are, we were robbed
Ben: mm. Deserves that he, he deserves that retribution.
Sophie: So. Yeah, needs to
Ben: happen. I think it might, it's probably lead. I feel like, I feel like they're building, this is, this is turning into a boy's prediction podcast, but I feel like they're also possibly leading him up to then using the V at the end to try and kill soldier.
Boy, you know, MSS whole thing is I'm not gonna touch the compound V oh. Even the temporary one. Yes. But to then, you know, he has to become the thing that he like hates so much, like his whole thing of like, you know, we have to draw a line because they don't, I think to kill Sal boy and to get revenge MSS, gonna have to cross his
That's a really good prediction. I like it approved. Cool. And then, yeah, very quickly. I just, because I've been watching Obi one as well, I've been watching a couple of a, a few actually, um, Y McGregor films that I hadn't was before, because that that's kind of my vibe now. I just go down like actors [00:20:00] filmographer and I just see how they've evolved over time.
And. I said two really bad ones. Scenes hit me of sexual desires, like a British film. It has come Hardy as well. Like it's very old. It's really just really bad. Just
Ben: like people talking.
Is that the one where he plays an aging musician or something? Or is that a different one?
Sophie: No, uh that's uh, the entire film is set in Hamstead Heath. Okay. And it's basically five different couples that just talking and it just very hard. You have Mark Strong. You have McGregors you have quite a few. Uh A-listers but it's just so boring.
Um, and then young Adam, that them, that I turned off halfway through, I didn't even get to watch. It was like kill the swim. Um, just really bad. um, so I'm really painting a picture here, but I also saw a couple of. Better ones. Uh, angels and demons had never seen that film with Tom
Ben: Hanks. Oh my God. [00:21:00] Tom Hanks has even come out and said, now that those movies, like even he's come out and been critical of those movies that tells you how te that's one of the, that I saw that movie in the cinema mm-hmm and that is the closest I have been to walking out.
Sophie: this the, is this like a sequel or precal to DaVinci code? It's it's a sequel to
Ben: DaVinci code. Okay. Because it's very where you and McGregor plays the priest or something. Isn't that what he is? He's some like
Sophie: weird priest, but I have to say, I feel like he was the best. He's the best film.
Ben: He's he's the best of a bad bunch.
Put it that way. Yeah. Yeah.
Sophie: And that's what I really like about him because yeah, I did get to see like quite a few bad films, uh, from him, but he's kind of operating in his own bubble where he still turns up and delivers a great performance, even though the film sucks and the ghost writer. Uh, with Chris B that I had,
Ben: I haven't seen that in years.
Yeah. I forgot. I completely forgot about that film.
Sophie: It's a solid film. It's a solid film. Yeah. And yeah, McGregor is really, really good. Uh, again, I
Ben: feel like McGregor has a solid bar that like, he always kind of [00:22:00] hits even if the apart from maybe apart from maybe beauty and the beast where he does the dodgy Frank accent, which I didn't really, I didn't really understand his casting, his Lumir, um, yeah, him doing a kind of a strange French accent, but I feel like, yeah, he kind of sets himself a bar that he hits every time, pretty much, you know, mm-hmm, no matter what, and I think it's been great seeing him as all be won again.
Um, and I think it's probably, is it my favorite star wars series? I dunno, obviously Mandalorian's, Mandalorian's great, but for a pure, like nostalgia as someone who like the prequels were the movies that I went to as a kid that. Absolute nostalgia is just, yeah, I think it's great. I, I love seeing him again and hearing, hearing the voice again, uh, which is, which is quite cool.
And I like the story they did. I think I had a bit, I think you, you said, probably had said that I was watching it, that you were kind of worried that they were just gonna go down the road of like he's in the desert and he's just looking after Luke and all this kinda stuff, [00:23:00] but actually they kind of take it in a different direction, which is, I won't say what direction they take it in, in case you haven't watched it yet, but it is, um, it's an unexpected one, but actually it's one that works a lot better for like star wars, Canada and a new hope and all that kind of stuff.
And yeah, it just doesn't make it that he's just hanging out in the desert for six episodes, which would've been probably a little bit dull and a little bit too much like BFE, which nobody wants to do again.
Sophie: Yeah. I, I really liked it as well. I mean, I haven't seen the last episode, but it's good.
Ben: It's good.
I will say it's good. Yeah, it ends it really well. Nice.
Sophie: Okay. Can't wait. Um, but it's interesting because. , I am not a big star wars fan. And the fact that I liked it, I don't know if that says anything about the front size. Like, does it mean that it's too mainstream or too, for lack of a better word, basic as a show.
So it's very accessible is, or is that
Ben: a good thing? I think that's a good thing. I think, I think it opens star wars to a bigger audience. I think it would be good for what they wanna do in the future. Cuz there's this talk now that [00:24:00] obviously Taika, Y T T has a star wars film that, you know, they're saying now in future, it's not gonna be this Skywalker thing that the, you know, all nine films have been based around.
It's gonna actually go outside of it. And do you know stories within the star wars universe? Is much more interesting, you know, than there's another Skywalker back. And it's like, okay, how many times you can only milk this? How many, how many cycles are we gonna like, are we gonna get to like 30 films? And we've had 10 cycles of there being a Skywalker, um, trilogy.
So I think it sets it up quite nicely and it like expands the world a little bit, which a lot of these series is, you know, especially Mandalorian. Like Mandalorian's a great example of taking a completely new character and just setting it in that universe, which is really nice.
Sophie: Uh, cool. So, so we move on to our community segment, go over it.
Cool. We're going to keep this short as we wanna spend a bit more time, uh, on our final scenes this time around, but we did ask a fun question on Instagram the other day. And as [00:25:00] long as you delivered, what is a cool film tri you learned recently? I will go through some of my favorites that stood out to me.
And I don't know if you. I had the chance to look through them, but I
Ben: had, I had a look at a couple and some more ones that I knew and some more ones that I didn't, which was, which is always quite nice. Oh,
Sophie: I feel like, I didn't know any of them. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Um, so the first one in full metal jacket, the voice of hotel on the radio, the cowboy calling for tongue support is Jacque sound Krick oh,
Ben: I didn't conic Qure oh, I did not
Sophie: know that little.
Thanks. I always appreciated. I feel like, yeah, he's the kind of director who used to do those things.
Ben: Um, that reminds me of kind of, uh, the, I dunno if you know the, like the cameos and stuff in like hot fus. Yes. So, uh it's um, Kate Blanchett is, uh, his ex at the start. Who's dumping him. Who's behind all the, um, The surgical gear in the, in the house with, uh, with, with the dead body really is Kate bun.
It's like the ex-girlfriend and the Santa Claus who stabs him in the opening scene is Peter Jackson. What? So [00:26:00] yeah, if you go back and you watch it and you freeze frame it, you'll, you'll be like, oh my God, that is Peter Jackson. So yeah. Oh, that's so cool. Quite interesting. I like, I like that kind of stuff where directors just like sneakily put one another in their movies.
Yeah. And they put kind of their, get their friends and stuff in it, which was quite cool. Ah,
Sophie: sure. Um, in the dark night, Bruce Wayne drives a Lamborghini Mogo Mogo. Is that how you pronounce it? Okay. Which is a Spanish word for bat.
Ben: I did know that one. That was the one that, yeah.
Sophie: How do you know, where did you hear that?
Ben: feel like I just, me, I feel like me, me showing that I used to try and be manly as a teenager, but I feel like it was on like an episode of top gear or something where they Leggo, it means bet. Mago. And then yeah. Obviously he drives it. He drives it in the movies. Yeah, that's
Sophie: really cool. Um, the actress is from portrait of a lady on fire were married to each other.
And got divorced a few weeks before the movie began filming. Oh, God fun. Well, I, I feel like now I can tell why there was someone tension between [00:27:00] them. I feel like that explains
Ben: why the, why the performance
Sophie: is so real. Yes. By the way is one of my favorite, uh, CELs scam of film. So if you haven't seen it, please do.
And the last one that I really liked, someone said, it's a bit of a longer story, but I actually think it's really fun. Someone said I've always enjoyed that. Tom cruise essentially saved. Lock stock into smoking barrels from going straight to video, Matton contacted one of the investors, asking her to contact Tom cruise and get him to a buyer screening of the film.
And strangely he sewed up. This made all of the producers pay attention. Even some senior executives sewed up and Tom cruise was caught it as saying, this is the best movie I've seen in years. You guys would be fool not to buy it. And the success of that film put guy rich in, um, Jason state time on the map.
So, oh my God. I didn't
Ben: know. So it's a good, yeah. If it's a preview just off the back of our last episode, proving that TC can do in our run. Dude,
Sophie: everything you touch just turns into gold,
Ben: which we, which we should say thank you to every it's like our most popular episode. Isn't it? The TEAC. It is. Thank you [00:28:00] for everybody for listening to it.
But yeah, that's good movie trivia. I didn't actually know that one. I'm trying to think of other kind of random ones that, that I now off just the top of my head that I've heard. I've definitely, as I said, I've definitely heard that one. Um, but
Sophie: it's also a hard question because it can be quite, even though you may know plenty of like trivia.
Yeah. I feel like you need to be specific with a
Ben: person. The one that I, the one that I liked and I, and also I knew as well, um, which could be, and I've rewatched this scene that it is quite interesting knowing that this happens. But in, uh, in the second Lord of the rings movie, when, uh, they find the, find the burning pile of Orka looking for Marion Pippin, Vigo, Martins, and girls, and kicks the helmet and then drops to the ground screaming, he actually broke his foot doing that.
Someone said that, um, yes, you would mention that. Yeah. And so when you watch it, when he drops down screaming like that, oh, that's him. Breaking his foot, which again, not to go, not tolog the Tom cruise horse here. but obviously have you, I assume you've seen the footage of him breaking his ankle filming fall out.
No. [00:29:00] So we're in the scene when he's chasing Henry caval across London and he's going across the rooftops. There's one scene where he comes on top of a roof, kind of pans around. He runs along and jumps from one building to the other and he gets across jumps across then climbs up and runs off. And the scene that they use is this one, he jumped, whatever way he put his foot out, he hits foot, hits the building and he basically shattered his ankle.
Oh shit. And that's the, the footage again that they use in the film. You get open you, if you watch it again, you'll notice as he goes to run, he kind of hobbles off a little bit. Ah, and that's basically because his ankle has just. Bang and the dude just continues on cuz he's an absolute, bloody legend
Sophie: and I'm sure he wanted that footage to, you know, make it to the final
Ben: time that was, there were probably better cuts of that or better shots.
And he was like, Nope. The one where I break my ankle definitely has to go in there. So everybody knows how hardcore I am. That sounds like TC. Yeah. But uh, yeah, no, I had known that I had known that Lord of the rings one, but it is a diff as you say, it's a difficult question. I, I went and found myself like Googling like movie trivia.[00:30:00]
Mm. But it was things that it's, it's like, you know, it's like, it's like when someone tell, says, tell me a joke and then you automatically forget you. Won't all the jokes, you know? Yeah. I probably have a lot of random movie trivia rolling around in my head that in daily conversation, I can just rattle it off like, oh, well, did you know that that happens.
But as soon as I was. what movie trivia do. I know my whole brain just goes, uh,
Sophie: I know because there is too much information in your brain. I feel like if I were to ask, what is your, like, what is the one load of the rings trivia that, you know, it would be more specifically. Yeah. VI
Ben: Martinson breaks is what, yeah, the
Sophie: problem is there.
Um, the one that I really like, and I think it's because it's just unique in a way, even though it's not my favorite Tarantino film, it's from pulp fiction. And you remember the scene where Mia UMMA Thermo's character sees overdosing. Oh yeah. So you have don't trouble. This character sticking, uh, the needle
Ben: in, I still get so uncomfortable watching that scene just from like the crunch when he [00:31:00] hits her with the, with the, with the pen.
Sophie: the film, so the, the scene was actually shot backwards. So what travel is actually doing, he's sticking the needle out, but the film, but then they kind of filmed the scene in reverse in action. And
Ben: you see, so you get the real effect of him doing it rather
Sophie: than yes. It was run
Ben: backward, the film. Oh, interesting.
I, I mean, it's a pretty D it's probably a pretty well, not a dangerous thing to shoot, but like, to be able to get the full force of like jamming that in. Ugh. No, even just thinking about it now is making me feel uncomfortable.
Sophie: yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I think it's time to move
Ben: on's to those. Let's do it. We'll take it.
We'll take a quick break. Take a quick break. Play our little music a bit, and then yeah, we'll be backwards. We'll be backwards. Stand the man. And one of the grimmest films you'll ever watch in your life.
Ben: no, look a message from our sponsor. GI Jane too. Can't wait to see yo, hold what's up. Y'all watch some of this without much further ado.
There we go.
Sophie: Right. I think it's time to move on to our final [00:32:00] scene. Um, I think we should actually kick off with the very first voice note that we got from dear listener of ours. Chris, who sets up the film quite nicely. So we play it. Go for it. Hi
Ben: guys. This is Chris. Absolutely love the podcast and love that you've chosen to cover Kubrick.
Uh, full metal jacket is certainly not his best work, but, uh, the worst Kubrick work is better than most director's best works. Uh, great thing about full metal jackets is three act structure, and you can really cover the great final scene of each of those acts, whether it's piles, murder, suicide, or the Ted offensive, or the snipers killing and the Mickey mouse club March at the end.
Um, All of them really bring home the juvenile nature of the Vietnam soldier, the era of young men going overseas to meet new [00:33:00] and interesting people and killing them. Uh, again, just love the takes and keep doing good work. Aw. Oh, thanks
Sophie: Chris. Thank you, Chris, for your words. I mean, this is the reason we're doing the podcast.
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Um, yeah. So a quick word and full metal jacket, despite being considered one of the best warm films ever, I would say war is something that kind of creeps up on you in the film because you it's not as prominent in the first half. It kind of really gets into full out of proportion in a way like in the second half.
And when you think about it, the truth is war is not the protagonist it's, uh, Private joker, right? Like this is the kind of, um, like this is the person that we use as our way of seeing the war and seeing the like individuality that comes with every single soldier out there. And one of the things that stood out to me and like, Chris makes a really good point here is that [00:34:00] cubics war kind of dissociates from war as a subject matter.
Right. It's more of an analysis about it's one of the soldiers and what is the relationship to the war, which I find very, like compelling as a value proposition for a film, especially in 90, 97.
Ben: Right? Yeah. And what I mean yeah. You get some, shall we say varying reasons as to why as the white people are there?
I think it's interesting, you know, we just spoke about it as well during the break about this idea that it does have, the film does have this kind of. Three act structure, you know, it's written like a, it's written like a play in a way, if you have up to BA you know, the whole start of basing training and then piles, uh, suicide and also killing the drill Sergeant as well.
Yep. Um, which is a, like a very chilling scene in NFL. Yeah. Like Vincent Dino Rio's eyes. I [00:35:00] feel from that scene are burned into my head. it's I kind of gone asleep and I see those like him looking down at joker in my, in my head. And it's terrifying. And obviously the main final scene that we'll, we'll talk about in a bit of, you know, the snipers and the Mickey mouse clubhouse, which just feels so bizarre.
Sophie: Yeah. So, I mean, effectively, as Chris said, the film can be divided into three segments or, or maybe to mm well, because you have the brutalizing us training in the. Half in a way on the first, um, part of the film, and then you have Vietnam in the second. Right. But some people argue that the sniper is sometimes called its own segment in the end, because that's like a long scene.
I mean, it does take place in Vietnam, but like it's kind of its own thing in a way. So this is why people have been arguing that the film has three final
Ben: scenes. It, it feels like it could end, as you say, three points, like pile suicide. Then when they're being [00:36:00] interviewed, is it but like by stars and stripes after they've, uh, taken over the town and then it goes into the forward offensive and the, the kind of this long drawn out snipe or scene where everybody just keeps going.
Mm-hmm, absolutely mad. Mm-hmm
Sophie: and the common denominator is a joker because he's, he's the only character that is there throughout. And I would say that we, at least I. didn't get to realize that he's the actual protagonist until the end of the first half, which is when, um, what's been Vincent, the Nora character Gober pile Gober pile.
Yeah. Lawrence commit commits suicide. Right? Um, it's when I realized, oh, he's not a protagonist, it's actually private joke that we're looking at. I thought that was quite, I mean, that's cubic for you. I thought that was quite, um, interesting. So for the purpose of our conversation, I would like us to start with [00:37:00] an end with the final segment, the actual end.
Um, so to recap, in the last few scenes, after the men have identified the injured sniper, we get to see them rounding up with a commander rooting for punishing this sniper with something worse than death, essentially leaving the, leaving her to rats and private joker. We remember was against the idea, seemingly putting himself in the me versus the world situation when try to fight against his teammates.
Uh, and I feel like this is something that could be perceived, oh, I need to prove a masculinity right now. Right? Because you have everyone willing for him. So you have animal mother, his commander willing to allow a cul only if joker was the one to pull the trigger and doing so would mean that the joker for the very first time would take away someone's life.
But if you decided not to do it, the suffering sniper would die in a very cruel way. And ultimately, as you remember, joker chose the former, perhaps a better [00:38:00] option in the two equally and maybe not equally, but like really bad two bad scenarios. Yeah. And we then see his teammates rather happy. I would say, as joker finally kind of stepped into their, like,
Ben: we have that idea, the weird round, the circle kind of, uh, round the circle of soldiers.
Don't we? That
Sophie: was so more like, so morbid as in like you are celebrating someone's death. It felt like you're right in a way. Well,
Ben: it's, I think, and it's induction, right? It's well, it's it. I think what it does really well, and especially the, the, when, when the camera focuses on joker, when we get, obviously, you know, uh, that's when we start the second half of the film, we're in Vietnam and jokers talking about, you know, wanting to see real action and wanting to get back into it.
And when they're in the, when they're in the tent, can't remember the name of the, the, the soldier, but he says, you can tell when someone someone's seen real action, because they have that thousand yard stare, you know, they like, they see clearly they see what it is [00:39:00] and they, so there's, I feel like there's two kind of callbacks in the film.
It doesn't really mention it first is that one, because it focuses on joker and he is looking through the camera. That is it. He has this thousand yard stare. He gets what it is
Sophie: that he was told. He was lacking in the, earlier
Ben: in the film, what he, didn't, what he didn't have and, and what he said. He so clearly wanted.
And, and, and I think almost a thousand yards, there is this thing that you, uh, all the, and, and it's a, it's a comment on, you know, what Vietnam was in general of all these young soldiers going to fight in this war, thinking they knew what they wanted, but then when the realization hits them, you get that blank stare.
And the second thing is obviously the one that is there throughout well throughout kind of the second half of the film is he has the peace badge and he has born to kill in the helmet. And he, as he, as he says to the general, you know, it's the duality of man, you have that clear change where the duality of man, he shoots, what's clearly a child, the sniper as a mercy kill.
And then the next thing, you know, he's screaming and shout the Mickey mouse [00:40:00] clubhouse scene, as they walk back towards the base. And, you know, it's this weird duality within the soldier's personality of being able to do this, but then this kind of bizarre nature of singing like kids. Theme songs. It has these two kind of very, uh, morbid, but very kind of well thought through cutback state.
It doesn't, it doesn't have to mention it. You see it in the way he looks. And then in what, in what he's doing, what
Sophie: does, uh, what did that show signify for you? Because it is in that moment where we actually see him having that thousand yards
Ben: there. I think it's, I think it's, I think it's the moment when joker realizes that all those jokes that he told, he's not gonna tell those jokes anymore, because it's not funny.
He realizes that it isn't funny. Mm-hmm, , you know, all those jokes through basic training and his time riding for stars and stripes, not actually being in any action, as soon as he's done that, you know, possibly killed that first person. That's when he knows [00:41:00] he realizes what it is. And, and obviously in his voiceover, he says, you know, the most important thing is, is that we're not dead.
We get to, I get to go home. Yeah, we're alive. That's it. It's not funny. Doesn't matter. but you're alive. Mm-hmm, , that's what it is. That's the, that's the nature of it. And
Sophie: I, yeah, I think that's a really good point because when I think of, when I go back to that shot and you think of, you know, that kind of blank stare in a way, it almost comes back, which I feel like is the, the, the main theme of the film is that feeling of surrender and dissociation.
Like you have to dissociate in order to do like the brutal killings. And
Ben: it's why yourself, that's why they all have nicknames. They don't refer to one another in our, their first name, because it disassociates from that, you know, joker. Like I know it's just the actor, but Matthew Modine didn't kill that sniper.
Mm-hmm joker did. So when you go back, when you go back to the real world and you have to try and kind of come to terms with those things, you [00:42:00] at least have the idea of, oh, well, joker did that. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not joker anymore. This is this
Sophie: person. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So at this point we see him. One turning into that kind of like cold blooded war machine.
Like I, I feel like that's, that's the very first skill and there are many to come. I, I feel like, unfortunately, yeah, that's, that's my, um, interpretation in a way. And it is at this moment where he makes a decision to not return to yet not return really. And the reason I go back to dissociation is because even though he makes it out alive physically, I mean, he survives, as he said, he's alive at the same time.
I do think that at this very moment, something died inside of him.
Ben: And I think you, you, I mean, in, in real world terms, you do hear a lot of, you know, uh, there's been a lot of films made about VM and the post effects of that. Yes. And [00:43:00] that a lot of, uh, you know, people. People came back from Vietnam, but they weren't necessarily the same person that they were when they went there.
Sophie: and you have to be, I mean, and you have to be able to tell a very specific story to yourself in order to survive and like what he says in the very end, in terms of like, it, it almost like he justifies the killing by saying, oh, but at least I'm alive, but is life worth living if you live it in that way?
I mean, that's a very rhetoric rhetorical question, like very philosophical. But if you think about it's like, you're trying to be grateful for things that you're not like, I think that's, they're not worth being grateful for that's
Ben: Joker's whole thing though, isn't it? Yes. I mean, jokers basically feels like a philosophy student who thought, okay, I've done, I've done my philosophy degree.
I've read all of these books now. I want to go and experience, you know, they always talk about in the movie, like, as you said before, like going to meet new people and see Vietnam and you know, all these kind of these kind of. Bizarre justifications that they gave, but actually just thinking about it, just thinking about it, they're now talking about it.
One of the first things that the drill Sergeant says [00:44:00] to him, uh, is show me your war face. Oh yeah. And he does that bizarre clinic scream. Oh yeah. Yeah. And actually it's interesting to think about it in the, that actually that's the war face that he thought he would have going into Vietnam being the killing machine.
The war face that he actually has is this thousand yard stare. It's not the person running in screaming, you know, with this really over exaggerated face, it's a blank expression, you know, almost dead behind the eyes and how that, that joker is a very different joker from the one at the end. You know,
Sophie: I think that war face, uh, reference makes perfect sense.
When you think about the, the moments prior to him suiting the sniper where, you know, like the sniper is trying to suit him and he kind of loses control over the. Of his weapon. Do you remember that? I feel like it's at this point. Oh, his, his gun
Ben: jams. Yeah. Yeah.
Sophie: Yeah. So I, I feel like it's at this point where he realizes I [00:45:00] am not the tough guy.
Like I'm not a soldier, I'm not a tough guy like this. Isn't I'm not saying no, it's not for him. It's not for him. And I think he's kind of been, I don't say faking it, but like, he's kind of, uh, what's the word, like by him, like going down the journalist route, like he's just trying to do all the, you know, for lack of a better word war things, but like, without doing the war bit, like, you know, he's trying to be selective with what he's doing and it's at this moment where he has no choice because like it's either literal death or it's social death, which means getting rejected by his in group.
That is his teammates. And that would be horrific because the first half of the film, he's just, he was, he saw what happened to, um, Gober pile. I hope I'm saying this correctly. Yeah. Gomer pile, Gomer pile, sorry. Uh, Gomer pile, um, in terms of like being bullied and all of that, because he wasn't able to, you know, show up and be, yeah.
You know, a top [00:46:00] soldier. So he's like, am I going to have his Fu I feel like in his head, he's going, am I going to have his future? Maybe like, or like his, um, way of approaching, like the next few years of my life, if I don't comply. And I think eventually he comply, which is why, like, one of the questions that, um, one of the things I wanted to discuss is like, how do we think the first half of the film influenced the ending?
Ultimately, I wanna say the ending, I don't just mean the sniper bit, but also like the actual, like, you know, his, uh, final lines in the film and also the Mickey, um,
Ben: at least were still alive in the Mickey mouse
Sophie: club post bit. Yeah. Yeah. How, like, what are the things that kind of stood out to you? from the first film that you feel informed the second half, because even though they're two different films at the same time, I feel like this the first informed
Ben: the second, I think the, I think the themes are obviously the themes are very similar.
They're just in different, they're just in kind of, it's almost a joker kind of [00:47:00] becomes pile in that last kind of 10, 15 minutes. This thing that needs, you know, this person that he'd beaten up with soap wrapped in a sock and all these awful things that he had done. And, but then, you know, he's sees almost what pile sees, you know, when he shoots the drilling structure and, and, and, and, and, um, then joker has that first kill.
I mean, you could probably put the two of them side by side of pile sitting on the toilet, staring at joker and then joker stare at the end. And you're probably looking at like the same shot, which is two different actors, you know, as we, as we said, it's this kind of long running narrative of, of. You know, it's all just a tame.
It's all just a big joke up until yeah. That final scene. And even, you know, it is kind of crazy to think that he's seen one of the people in this platoon blow their brains dead in front of him. Mm-hmm he still goes to Vietnam. Mm-hmm still seen the horrors that can happen in boot camp. Yes. And yet he still goes, yeah, I'm get I'm getting on [00:48:00] the plane.
Mm-hmm I'm, I'm, I'm gone. Like I'm, I'm shipping out. And obviously, you know, a lot of the it's interesting that they, you know, they use the Mickey most club post one, but it's, you know, a lot of what they do when training is sing and they do talk about that, you know, the, the reason soldiers sing at battles, cuz it sinks you up, you know, everybody's singing, they're breathing at the same pattern.
So it sinks up your breath and stuff like that. And it makes you feel more like a unit and it's this, it, it kind of is this thing of, you know, the soldiers are individual, but the unit is a kind of an impregnable thing. And, you know, the drill Sergeant talks about that. Quite a lot of like, you know, it's all about the Marine Corps.
It's, you know, it's, it's the, it's not about the individual it's about the group. Well,
Sophie: that's the thing, because that's what the film is about. Uh, and I feel like this is what unites and connects the first half of the second half is the running theme in terms of individuality and more importantly, the need to cancel it.
Right. That, I mean, that's the film because, uh, if you think of [00:49:00] the first half you have the very first, like the opening scene, uh, where you have, you know, the. Oh, they're almost kids like, so your soldiers shaving. Yes. And it's one of them is trying to like, do their own like unique look and I mean, what does this even mean?
And then you also have Hartman saying, you know, straight out saying, you're not even like, while you're in training, you're not even human beings. Yeah. Right. Which is like, okay, here we go. I'm like, okay, thank you. Um, so this is kind of sets the scene for what it's about to happen in a way. And yeah, I mean, I know we wanna talk about the very final scene in a second, but the, the ultimate message from the first half is that you're just a weapon and you may as well use yourself.
And I feel like this is what joker does in the end. He uses himself as a way to survive. And he's a weapon.
Ben: One of the things that they, you know, they keep telling, [00:50:00] they keep telling him that basic training is, you know, the rifle's just a weapon. Yes. You're the machine that does the killing mm-hmm you know, this is my rifle.
There are many like it, but this is mine without my rifle. I am nothing without my, without my rifle. I am nothing.
Sophie: Oh God. Yeah. I mean that,
Ben: yeah, those lines, I mean, it's, it's intense piercing. It puts you in that it puts you in that mindset.
Sophie: Yeah. Um, cool. I would love talk about the actual final scene of the film.
It's interesting because I think for many viewers ending the film with a Micki mouse, smart song may seem bit strange or odd. So we play the song as a reminder for people go for it. We
Ben: have nailed our names in the pages of history enough for today. We hump down to the perfume river to set in for the night and must you, we play there and we, and harmony.
[00:51:00] And I see K Y ever. You, I see big mouse, 50 mouse. KKI mouse, Vicky mouse, whoever. Let us hold. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi boys and girls from far near welcome as can be. So we
Sophie: see the, the Marines March towards their camp, right? Um, I think they're,
Ben: yeah, they're marching. They're marching down to the river to kind of set up camp for the night.
Sophie: the Mickey mouse smart song and taking place in 1967 during the Vietnam war or American war war. If your Vietnamese, uh, all that happened in full metal jacket was only around 10 years younger than the Mickey mouse club house TV show, which aired in the us from 90, 55 to 90, 59. So, if you think about it, the majority of the soldiers though, it's never [00:52:00] clearly stated were in their twenties, meaning just a decade ago, there was still young boys, like watching them
Sophie: through their like innocent eyes.
Let's tell the eyes. And now the eyes that they have now are just like the, those lifeless eyes of murderers. And I dunno, the optimist in me says that they're singing this song as a way to kind of maybe reclaim like that innocence. And that's how, like, kind of reminds them that there is a hope to find that like more innocent version that was, I wanna say was, or is out there for them.
But I dunno if I'm just being too sentimental.
Ben: I think it's, yeah. I mean, uh, it's a coping mechanism for them, isn't it? It's, uh, it's them using that to ignore the burning surroundings and the burning buildings and the dead bodies that are around them. Yeah. Singing this kind of. Random kid's TV song.
Mm-hmm , you [00:53:00] know,
Sophie: but you look at the thing is why that specific song, because I think at the same time you have so many positive memories that song, and I feel like it's very, for me, it would be very hard to dissociate. Like it would be one thing to just sing a song that I have zero connect, emotional connection with, but they grew up with Mickey mouse like these, you know, boys now guys, I guess.
So I don't, I don't know. I don't know if it's them like clinging onto something or, uh, maybe it's a bit of both like the associate with, or try to cover the negative with something like that's very positive
Ben: and like, yeah. I, I, I, I think it's, I think it's sing the song so you don't have to think about everything you've just done.
Remember, you know, remember these nice kids, TV shows and desensitize yourself to everything that you've just done by just remembering. Oh, but like when we go back to the states, there's Mickey me clubhouse and all these amazing things that we get. Remember who we were, but that's not, you know, that's not the case.
Everything that you do, [00:54:00] mm-hmm, stays with you.
Sophie: Mm-hmm mm-hmm um, I know we have another listener, Christopher who had a great take on the final scene. So let's play
Ben: it in the ending. They're like marching in they're singing the, uh, the Mickey mouse song while everything is on fire. And what I think is so interesting about that is like, you're seeing like the, the culmination, like of this dehumanization process, as I like to think of it anyways, because slowly over the, uh, the first half of the movie, we're really seeing, you know, their morale and their, um, independence, really being broken down.
And that, I think that's what makes like a Gomer pile's character. So like interesting. He's like refusing to be another, like cog in the machine. And so we're able to relate to him actually a lot more. I think also that's why people like the first half of the movie so much more than the second [00:55:00] half, we're able to really laugh and relate to kind of the lighthearted nature.
That's in the first half of the film and what makes the, the, the second half I think so like interesting. And the reason I think people don't actually like it that much is because we can't relate to that. It's not meant to, for us to laugh. It's for us to really take a look at what's happened to these people, cuz they're not, you know, they're broken down, they're cogs in the machine at this point.
Um, so it's very, very sad to see how it's so normalized for them. They're laughing while the world's on fire and singing Mickey mouse. And it's disturbing in a sense to us because we can't relate. But to them it's just the new normal laughing while the world's on fire is a very good point. Oh
Sophie: man. I mean that,
Ben: that, and that's some people just wanna see the world burn, see that, man, God,
Sophie: but that's the twisted contradiction that I feel like [00:56:00] exists in every single cubic film.
Like he really likes to take comedy and just twist it on its head with something very, either violent or aggressive or brutal morbids yeah. Morbid. I think it's just doing that with clockwork orange. Just brilliant. I mean, just, um, but it's as, um, we were listening to Christopher's voice note, I was thinking to go to go back to the Mickey mouse song as kids, we're kind of told what to do, right.
And then you grow up as a young adult and you start to like have more self-awareness and maybe a bit more agency and at war. guys realize that this is not the case. Like you follow orders. Well,
Ben: I don't even, I don't even know if that they don't realize. I think it's the whole thing is that the training is that you reprogram them.
Sophie: Yes. You break them down. You break, build them
Ben: up. You, as you say, you break them down into something that's not human and build them up. You build them back up into the human that you want them to be. This personality that's [00:57:00] developed over 20 years through childhoods, teenage years in school, you break that down.
You get them to forget all of the, any of the morals or the beliefs that they may have held and you turn them into a machine. That's a very good point. And I think the thing is the thing about joker is, is the joker kind of, he tries to maintain some of. Up until that throughout the film, until the end, he tries to maintain those elements of his personality that are still I'm, you know, I'm a cynic mm-hmm , you know, if you ask him, you know, he probably doesn't really believe in the war, you know, every time he's asked why he's there, it's always a joke.
Clearly doesn't believe in why he's there. You know, he's almost there as a, it's hard to really explain this. Doesn't really say why he's there, but he's, you know, it sticks with him throughout, you know, pile by the end. But just the end of that first half, he's a machine. He knows how to clean his rifle. He can shoot.
That's all, that's all he does. That's all he knows. And that goes horribly wrong for him.
Sophie: Yeah. And it's why you see all of the [00:58:00] soldiers giving the superficial answers to the interviews. Like we hate Vietnam and like, we are stronger. Like it just, yeah, it's little like propaganda. I don't, maybe that's not the right word, but like they've been fed that kind of information.
They've been fed that kind of belief system, uh, in a matter of months and yeah, it's kind of disturbing. And the thing is to go back to like the very final saying, when we have the marching, when you March you arts, you supposedly you stand for something. Right. And I think that if you think about it, like the soldiers were told that they are fighting to bring freedom, right.
That was the story. And unbeknownst to them, they're also helping the us to conquer like foreign countries and kind of. Spread the American dream and imperialism. And, um, we actually have very, really interesting voice note from Tim who is my online BFF, committing of cinema , uh, who also talks about the ending and hit touches [00:59:00] on this idea of American culture and dream.
So let's put it on what's going
Ben: on. Sophie, Ben and Simon. Uh, it's Tim comedian cinema. When I heard you guys were gonna be talking full male jacket. I was so stoked. It's my, probably my favorite Kubrick film. I can watch it anytime, anywhere, um, which might let you know a little bit too much about my, my mental health, but you know what?
I'm not just cut to the fucking chase, uh, Kubrick fashion, the ultimate satire on the American dream and American culture. At that time through the use of Matthew O Dean's private joker, you know, you have this sarcastic. Unrelenting character experienced these horrifying, horrifying things. And he goes from pretending to be a tourist, wanting to visit the, the, the jewel of Southeast Asia to succumbing to the horrifying trauma, uh, that these, that these soldiers endured, you know, the, the organism that is the [01:00:00] Marine Corps in the end of the movie, they find, you know, a weird power through that trauma when they're singing the Mickey mouse song after such a horrifying moment amongst like, you know, uh, uh, smoldering, rubble and fire, um, while private jokers, you know, recalling dreams of Mary Jane, rotten crotch, it's like, it's the ultimate show like showing of the mirror on, on American culture and society at the time.
And the idea that you were making people to be destroyed overseas. And that's the only outcome. Of of that war and it truly is. And it's just, yeah, I, I fucking adore this movie from top to bottom I'm so looking forward to, to the podcast. Um, alright, see you. Thank
Sophie: you, Tim. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Tim. This is, uh, very well put, right?
Yeah. You think about it. And I also find that there is a lot of allegory between the lyrics of the song and [01:01:00] what we witness in the second half of the film. So you have lyrics, like we'll have fun, we'll meet new faces, we'll do things and we'll go places. And then you have like this older, like having fun, like with booze and, you know, sex workers go new places, going new places, you know, traveling, um, having a lot of fun and new faces that they might just get murdered down the line.
So there's that. And then all around the world, we're marching. And then the very end you have serial soon, which is. almost like Cuba kind of giving up a, a piece of the future in a way, because a lot of them are going to be seeing each other in heaven or hell, depending on what you actually believe. Yeah.
So yeah, quite terrifying stuff. Now, I feel like we talked about the, the very final lines from joker. Is there anything you'd like to, to add? I
Ben: don't think so. I, I think it's, I think as we said, you know, his, his, his, his [01:02:00] ending monologue is that final realization of, I wanted to come here. I wanted to see these places and do these things.
But at the end of the day, the most important thing is that I'm still alive. That's all that matters. I'm alive. And they. And I get to go home. It's the realization that this whole thing is pointless. Mm-hmm, all that he's been told of. You know, you get a lot of different people telling him why they're in Vietnam and what they're doing it for.
You know, you have the general telling him of, you know, what is it in inside every Vietnamese person? There's like a, a God loving American or, you know, all these, all these kind of things. And that's him going? No, all of this is bullshit. All that's bullshit. I'm not here for the right reasons. And the only thing that's important right now is that I get home.
I'm still alive. Yeah, that's it. Mm-hmm .
Sophie: And from what I read and from people that I have either predicted the film or things that I've heard, you know, on my page, people are not fully solved on that final line because it's a [01:03:00] contradictory, but I feel like you're actually probably missing the point if you,
Ben: if you, I think that, I think the point is, is that like he is now, it's not, it's not contradictory.
It's a, it's a realization of mm-hmm. You know, jokers, he's not contradicting himself. He's, he'd been lying to himself the whole time trying to justify why he was there and what he thought he wanted. You know, he says, he thinks he wants this action. Yes. You know, he wants to go to the front line. He wants to see some stuff, you know, and as soon as he does, he realizes doesn't matter what I want.
Sophie: does not matter. Yeah. And I think it represents Kubrick's point of view and intent brilliantly, because he has famously said that when asked about the film, he said, the film is not pro-war, it's not anti-war it's the way things are.
Ben: Yeah. It's a, it's it, it is a, I mean, it's just a very honest mm-hmm telling of how it was.
Mm-hmm it's not glorifying it. It's just saying, this is what happened. Mm-hmm this is, this is, this was the, the [01:04:00] realization for a lot of young men who went halfway across the world. Looking to travel the world and meet new people. And that was the dream that was probably sell to you by the army. You know, join the army, travel the world, still done today.
Adverts still talk about, you see an art for the army. It talks about going and seeing the world and seeing new places. Mm-hmm, still does the same thing. Still sell the same propaganda to people. It's the same. It's just
Sophie: a different war than chain.
Ben: Yeah. Which is kind of terrifying, terrifying, really terrifying and really scary is that terrifying.
You know, you, you, you look at what joker talks about and all the different characters talk about and why they went and what they're going for and what they told they were told they'd be doing. We still do it. Mm-hmm to get people to join the army. We still say the same old thing. And, you know, yeah. It's, uh, I guess the scary thing about it is, is that the message is the same.
It's just different war, isn't it? Mm-hmm , you know, unfortunately yeah. The message of why people join the [01:05:00] army and the realization of what it's like when you get there. Possibly still the same mm-hmm because we still use the same ideas, seeing the world, making friends, becoming part of a unit mm-hmm , you know, finding those people who don't feel like perfect part of something.
And you tell them, you join the army in the army as a family, we are a unit. We do these things together. And that's what a lot of, you know, you can see it, you know, throughout the film, like pile is someone who's just looked pile almost feels like he's just looking for friends. Yes. It's the only reason he's come to basic training is cuz he is like, I've never fit in anywhere and I'm six foot, whatever I'm strong and the army makes sense for me cuz I haven't fit in anywhere else.
But the army doesn't matter if you fit in outside cuz the army makes you fit in with them. It's a pretty, kind of scary realization that we're we're we're still in that we're still in that kind of cycle.
Sophie: Speaking of now a really cool. Fun trivia for the ending. And we can end with that is, um, I heard Matthew Madin said in a 2017 [01:06:00] radio interview, I think that Kubrick's initial intent was to have joker killed in the end.
Interesting. Like he was supposed to die and then Matthew convinced him not to because, and K was like, okay, tell me why he was like, I was gonna say old repeated to me.
Ben: I'm all directors of all directors to be able to convince, not kill someone
Sophie: of. And Madin made the point around the real horror of war is coming back is doing the city things and like the morbid things that you're doing and still like getting to see your friends die and like killing kids and killing women and still surviving and living with that, uh, information in your head and your heart and your soul, and yeah.
Cubig was sold and he changed the ending. So fair play to Matthew movie fair play. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's yeah. It's, uh, I think it's the right ending. I think it's the right ending. Yeah, it
Ben: definitely, I mean,
Sophie: him dying is like very Hollywood, you know? Yeah. It's
Ben: still Hollywood. He goes out and plays a glory and like it almost glorifies joker in a [01:07:00] way, you know, um, gives him, gives him the hero's death and that doesn't really work.
But for a film that is. Hard slog to watch, you know, uh, it's, it's not easy to get through, but it definitely ends in the best way possible if he had died at the end, you know, if it had been him instead of cowboy, it's a very different ending to a film and it sends a, probably sends a very different
Yes. I agree. It's the right ending. Nice. I think we saw the ending again. Yeah, we did. With the help of our friends. Thank you so much for sending your voice notes. They really put a lot of things in perspective
Ben: for us. Yeah. And I've been, if you have any voice notes on any movies that we have coming up, that we're gonna review feel free to send them in or any yes, please.
Any more voice notes on any takes that we've given no hot takes in this episode? Yes. Part that you McGregor has a, has a, has a, has a, has a watermark for how good he normally is. People probably come in and be like, he's terrible. What, what are you talking about?
Sophie: We love McGregor. We didn't mention his good films, but you know, we wanna.
Ben: Take a different, everybody loves me on Rouge. Oh, [01:08:00]
Sophie: I mean, don't get me started this episode of that film alone. Um, yeah. So keep on sending them. We now have a WhatsApp number as well. So like you can pick and choose whatever you like, uh, for a chance to get featured in our episode. Yeah. That was the show.
If you made it this far, you know what you do subscribe to wherever you're listening and leave us a five star review on a Spotify or apple podcast. It helps the podcast get discovered by many more Sy files like yourself. I don't wanna give away two months about our next episode, but we're going to have our very first interview with someone very special.
Ben: Good. It's maybe might or may not be gonna be. I dunno,
Sophie: I can't confirm and the fact rumors have it rumor it's sky. Yeah. I'm gonna DM here very quickly. And the final thing we're going to be talking about is from the short film that won the Oscar last year is ahead. The long goodbye. So if you haven't seen it yet, please do, we will be back in two weeks.
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Ben: Did you like it? Did you like that? Did I like it? I loved it. I, I had no idea you could milk a cat. I have nipples. Greg, could you milk me? Good morning, morning. Good morning. Oh, and in case I don't see ya. Good afternoon. Good evening. And good night.