CinemaCon reactions, films that changed our lives & 12 Angry Men ending explained

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Hi, everyone. Welcome to that final scene. My name is Sophie and you are most likely listening to this. If you're following my Instagram page with the same name where I've been literally spoiling you for the past four years.

I am joined by my very dear friend Simon, and a very dear new friend, Ben, how are you guys doing? Not too shabby, not too shabby. So when we say, how many drinks are we in? Well, because we're rerecording this intro quite late into the night. When we arrived. So if you'd already had rum and Coke, the assignment was having a cider and I came with the attention of not drinking and then had a drink, little slippery.

See why wetting the whistle. Yeah. Before we kick off Simon, because you are the common thread in the group, I would love for you to give the breakdown in terms of how as three and got together. Cool. Well, Sophie and I used to work together back in the day. It was your first ever gig in London or your first proper start up.

And we became friends. I think around that time, you probably started the Instagram account as a kind of side project. And it didn't take much notice of it. It was a stupid idea. And then obviously built up an amazing community over the last few years. Ben and I were in the. And Ben mentioned this account, that final scene.

And I was like, wait a minute. This is my friend safest car. Um, it was weird because as you say, I mean, we were just sitting in the pub and I was kind of like, yeah, I'm looking at getting back into podcasting and stuff like that. And I follow this really interesting Instagram page, Scott, like that final scene.

I think there's like really good ideas. And I think I'd say that, like, I think I'm just going to like message the Instagram page and be like, listen, I'm an audio producer. If you need help, like I'd love to help produce. And so. But I know that fine. I know Sophie. I was like, oh my God, it was so random. Yeah.

And prior to that, Ben had been telling me he'd been watching the James Bond film. What's it called? No time to die, no time. And how he'd cried at the end. And I was like, hang on a minute. Ben would be a great, great talk about how I cried in that gray again. But yeah. So this is our first show, right? I know a lot of people have been asking for that podcast to happen since forever.

So. It's kind of surreal that this is happening because I've been stressing about it for a while, because I'm not very confident, but right now I would say I'm equal parts, excited and equal parts terrified. But I do think I wouldn't be able to, no, I don't think I know that I wouldn't be able to do this on my own.

So I'm so glad. You're my co-host. And you're doing this Wilder. Ultimately, same thing with a page. We do want to be helpful. And we know that everyone is spending a lot of unnecessary time on streaming services right now, looking for things that are really not worth your time. So we do want to make no, but you know, like holding for you HB on, I really enjoyed point blank last night.

Point break that much. Is that chronic and it's not the Netflix original. So we do want to make sure we save your time and energy by giving you the recommendations that you're looking for. So this how we're going to be usually starting our episodes every other week. We also want to make you guys feel heard.

So we will have a community spotlight for. You and for that final scene community where hopefully you will feel seen in a way. I think that's something I've seen in a way, because I feel like that's lacking in movie review podcast right now, where you just have like overly technical conversations and things.

I know it'd be one sided and no one hears from that movie going audience. I don't feel like there's something out there. So we would love to spotlight you. And then finally, of course, we are going to be ending, ending episode unsurprisingly. Endings about films and TV shows, AKA final scenes. So we're going to be doing a blend of older final scenes, like the godfather and the final scene of the wire and like things like that.

They're just to have to watch all of the work you have to the anniversary of yeah. The anniversary is in December. So you have. I'm giving you a commitment in the wire, isn't it? It's the whole land isn't there its own language. The American listeners are going to be very offended that you said at time, but it's got a specific Baltimore thing where it's didn't load.

The people complain that they couldn't hear the dialogue. Is this like when people subtitle Irish voice. Cause I find a home when I see an Irish person on television and they subtitled them. Cool. So to kick things off, seeing them, I con is the one thing that everyone is talking about right now. Cinema con is basically the biggest convention for cinema or movies.

Owners is that like movie theater owners? Yeah, that's right. But it's more of a B2B thing where it kind of speaks to exhibitors and that sort of thing. Yeah. And what's interesting is that in the past few years it has turned into yeah. To your point Comicon in a way, but for films. So I feel that we are being slapped with, uh, trailers and exclusive get back to.

So, yeah, I mean, Ben, I would like to hear, like, what's your takeaway so far? I mean, um, I'm happy that they've announced another Batman. I think that's really good news because I was in Ireland over the weekend. I was talking with people about like my top 10 films of all time and I've put the new Batman film in there because I think it is fantastic.

So I'm very happy that there's another one of those nice. I mean, every time Sony now, like introduce a new Marvel movie, I genuinely just kind of. I have to take a second because I'm really excited about into this weight reverse, which is so, and I don't know if it's a animated Spiderman movie, which is the SQL or sorry, across the spider verse and then beyond the spider verse, which is they're doing it in two parts, which I think will be really good, but what I'm more so, a little bit worried about is these like strands of Spider-Man.

So the rapper bad Boonie is doing. And I just don't know. I mean, they've announced venom three as well, and they just kind of I'd liked it to be a little bit more clear direction from Sony rather than just, we're just going to keep releasing movies. You know, we're going to keep doing it to have a bit more of a Marvel cell generation than flogging the Spider-Man horse.

Cause it feels like all they have at the minute, what's been your favorite trailer. Oh, that's a good question. Um, see a lot of the ones that I've, that I'm really looking forward to there hasn't necessarily been tried or so far. So obviously across the spider verse had the trailer from last year, really enters in the gray man, the Russo brothers, Netflix film, but that's just stills.

Nothing really is excited. Me trailer wise, as I say, it's more so been about these. Slates that we're now getting for what's coming out in a year or two, two or three years time. Just literally play trailers, like 10 minute trailers. Yeah. To like a room full of back to back trailers. No. So they'll do like convention, like they'll have convention halls, you know, you'll have a room full of fans and people clap the trailers.

Oh yes. Oh. So I'm going, they go crazy. And sometimes they'll bring out the cast and people will lose their mind, like, oh, absolutely. And it's really enjoyed. It's actually really enjoyable to watch. Like it's, it's quite funny to watch, but it's also quite endearing in a way, because it does speak to movie theater owner from around the world and to see that kind of event having that.

Not just impact but awareness right now. Well, cinemas are kind of dying. It's very sweet in a way to see that spotlight to them. I really liked that. I think it's quite nice as well, because one of my pet peeves is when people kind of Bob notes still for like Comicon and cinema con on all these kinds of conventions and they go, oh, you just go and you get all these people who are obsessed and all this stuff.

Well, they're not, they're not obsessed. They just really care. They really care about like source material. So when actors are like, mom, I'm never going to comic con again, I absolutely hated it. I'm like, but your career is based around the fact that these people aren't like, especially like comic book funds and stuff like that, or any movies that are made around other source material.

It's not that like the Lord of the rings series that's coming out. Yeah. Anybody who gets annoyed about that is they're not getting annoyed because you've done a bad job. It's because they care so much about Lord of the rings and the books, maybe. Yeah. They're really emotionally invested in it. And then people go, oh, well, I'm not going to these things again, because these people are crazy.

It's like, no, they just, they really care. And your living is made off of that. And it's way, it's really nice with these things because you get like, you know, the music community is off at Coachella and he's at cinema con you know, and getting together and actually getting to celebrate cinema. Um, actually that's really important after we've had two years of not being able to go to the movies at all.

Definitely. What's your favorite? What's your favorite gentlemen? Well, not Simon because Simon hasn't hasn't much my biggest takeaway from the convention so far is that. Brad Pitt we'll never get not hot. Did you see that? All my goal, like world wars, that vibes, um, it's action packed. It looks like a lot of fun.

I do trust him because I've, you rarely see him in really bad films. I feel like I know what he's doing. Like if he's from what I've seen in, when it goes through my, my filmography now, bad Brad Pittman, it's hard to find one. He's been very selective with what is very consistent in a way. So do you think that he's.

It's going to deliver something really good. It looks like, it looks like John wick basically cross with like the big Lebowski. Cause he has a bit of like stoner vibes, but he's like an international assassin. Who's stuck in the bullet train in Japan. Have you seen him upon one time in Hollywood? No. How old is he now?

I know his birthday. Eight December, 1963. Don't ask, don't ask, it's a long conversation for another episode. I have, I have this tattoo on my wrist. That's not my dataset. Um, I, the other, the other big thing that I want to talk about very quickly from cinema counties, Warners did their own presentation. And I feel like.

I want to give everyone in the PR team a hug, because I feel like they're going to need it. We have acumen to coming out with Amber herd and then we have the flash with Ezra Miller and with both of them being in the news for different reasons, I just wouldn't want to work for Warner brothers PR right now.

So I'm just sending you guys a virtual hug. If you're listening to. Do you think people would actually boycott her film or do you think the publicity is going to be exceptional and she'll benefit from, from it? That's a very good question. I don't think that there's going to be a massive boycott necessarily, but especially from fanboys, like they don't really care, but umber.

Yeah, but I do think it's going to make the PR teams live very hard in terms of how you market the film, how you put it out there. Like, do you put your in posters? Like, does it do like a press store? Like what's the conversation around that and that's going to be very complicated. Yeah, definitely. And then finally, very quickly, a quick shout out to the crimes of the future, uh, trailer David Cronenberg, birds.

Oh yeah. The biggest issue really is a full trailer. I didn't get a single second from me, but that's the seat for you. So I'm just very excited. I liked it.

So I would like to hear from you Simon, what's going on in your movie and TV world at the moment, I'm just fresh off the back of a point. How does it feel? Pretty good. And it's a bit naughty, a bit of a late night. Guilty pleasure guilty though. Yeah. Yeah. I also would say there's nothing guilty about it.

It's not like speed too. I mean, there's nothing guilty was a character called Johnny Utah. Yeah, exactly. There's lines like little hand says it's time to rock and roll lines. Like this

really subtle museum. There's also an excellent cameo from, uh, Anthony Kiedis from the red hot chili peppers. He's in it at one point is one of a, I think it was a beat up Keanu Reeves. It's essentially a bunch of reckless punks push things to the end. Can I, can I just give you one piece of advice, do not watch the remake.

There's like a remake from about four or five years ago. I had to work on that. It's not good at all

months more. I think in a way it doesn't have the soul. It's got general. It's got too much finesse. Well, there's something cool about it. Like the cool thing about point break is, is that it feels like a little bit rough and like, it is like back when it, like before the days of triple X, I feel like its point break is great because it's before the days of that.

So it's a little bit like rough and ready and also canneries and Patrick Swayze are both amazing. Isn't guarantee Bucy in it as like Patrick's where he's, he's, uh, it's one of those movies that I really like, because I feel like I can just sit down and just be like, okay, I just know that for the next, like two hours, I'm just going to be able to kinda disengage, disengage and just be like blown away.

Like I watched that and then I watched. Your first time. Oh my God. Okay. How was that? Like I watched it because there's a UK garage track the samples, this line, and that's what made me watch it. I feel like it's one of them. Satirizes the wrong. But it's one of the most like parodied movies in any kind of TV, if there's like the whole Simpsons episode of it, slideshow Barb.

And like even the fact that he rolls out from underneath the car, Rick and Morty did an episode of it where the woman is under the car and she's blatantly screaming, Cape fear. Do you feel like it has aged well? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's okay. It's it's obviously of it's what was it? Early nineties.

Yeah. Can I just really, I want to say. In terms of dating, there is the scene where, um, what's the Robert dinero plays, the disgruntled criminal has been released in prison. Then he's trying to get back at the lawyer that put him in jail. Yeah. At one point he goes to the lawyers daughter's school, and this is really dark scene because she must be in like 13 and he corners her in this school's theater.

And there's this really creepy scene that goes on for ages, which has sort of sexual overtime. And that was kind of hard to watch, but then I don't think that, I think it was, it was presented in a way that was really dark. So I guess, tending to be something else. Exactly. Yeah. So I think, yeah, I think it's day-to-day okay.

Yeah. I feel like there's some horror anniversaries probably coming up to it and get something. October is coming well, Salem's lot. Stephen King Salem's law. It's a remake of very, I mean, I've read the book and I was the first, I want to see a few. I dunno, I used to be obsessed with Stephen King and then in the past 10 years, cause Dan's not Kim specifically, but he's, he's been an executive producer in every single film or TV.

They've done in the back of his books and I've just been majorly disappointed with 80% of what parts one or two. I did like eight, for example. Um, I didn't like the second one. I didn't like Lizzy story, which came out of the store of like a mini series on apple TV. Plus what's interesting is my favorite Stephen King book is actually the store.

And when I sell that there was a mini series with, uh, Juliana Moore and the Clive Owen. And laugh clever. He could have been James Bond, man. He was, he, I think he was in the running for it before Daniel  PAs his absolute high point children of men. It says 1.0, I'm not seeing that kind of an argument you haven't seen true.

Oh my God, children, children of men is one of the best films ever made hands down. It's incredible. It's on my list. I have to do that for final scene. That's a fantastic. We should do it for the anniversary of Brexit. It's very relevant. It's very relevant. Like it's coming up in June. So yeah, it's very, yeah.

Um, what I read is that he was like, it was a very first time he was actually writing the script for the CMS and I was so excited because you'd never seen him in a screenwriter role. Yeah. And you guys. The Dallas thing that ever seen in my life. And it's such an eye opening moment for me, because I was like, it's so interesting how someone can be such a talented novelist and not really know how to translate his work on the screen, which is why I get like, I mean, I don't, I ha I've never written a novel in my life, so I kind of.

It sounds like it's a different, it sounds like it must be a different wheel. Yeah. Wheelhouse in a way. Um, so that was disappointing day. Um, Salem's lot is coming up. I'm going to see it anyway. And I do want to say that it actually, because of war in there, it's doing the recent, um, presentation on cinema con.

It's one of the things that they really want to push because warden, this is really doubling down on the Halloween stuff. Like with eight and contouring, like they're owning that. Yeah. They're really owning that month. Every year they have that new Ethan Hawke one. Have you seen that one? Is it the black mask or, uh, is it the black phone?

No. Black fax machine. That's exactly. You must have had, um, I don't know if it's worn there's I don't have to nurse. Yeah, but it could be. Cool stuffing. We can move on to the next segment of our show, which is the community spotlight. When I look back at the past four years at this space active and I've been running it, I don't think that we would be doing this today.

If it weren't for you. And I wouldn't be joined by Ben and Simon, if it weren't for the participation and support and appreciation, you guys have so on the page. So. The people that know me and know my journey with a page, know how thankful I've been an I am with what you have given me in a lot of ways in the past few years.

So the other day I asked people on the page, what is the one film that changed your life? And it walked away the. The responses were absolutely phenomenal. Um, like always, uh, these people always come back with such thoughtful, funny introspective and wonderful comments. So we love to start out a few, but before I do that, do you, Ben and Simon have one field.

That changed your life for better or for worse. And in what way? Such a difficult question. Yeah. I know I'm throwing a curve ball. It's easy to name films that had a big effect on you or made you feel something, but a film that changed your life is big. Yeah. I mean, I'm trying, like, as someone who's doing, like I'm drawn before, I'm trying to think of like, you know, those fit because I can probably pick out some that I made, you know, like inspired me as someone who wants to.

Act and do drugs and kind of be a creative person. Like I always go back to in Bruge as you know, Colin Farrell was performance in that film made me go, holy shit, that's real. Like, I would really love to do something like that. And even though it's not, it's not the most celebrated film of all time. It's still like a, it's like it's a low budget in the film.

About two weeks to Hitman, to Hitman and Belgium, you know, and it just happens to have this incredible task. And it's an Irish film as well. You know, always plays quite nicely for me, but just going back to starting it all for me, I have such a vivid recollection of seeing the Phantom medicine. Uh, and, and just seeing it in this tiny little cinema screen that I don't think, I don't think there's cinemas even there where I went to see it in, but I just have such a clear recollection of going to that and being like, oh man, go to the movies, just cool.

All the crap. And this is something I really enjoy and it's become such a huge part of my life. Like a big part of who I am. It's like referencing movies and quoting movies and all that stuff fun as I say, going into drama. So those are two that I've probably not done necessarily change my life, but it definitely had an influence.

On me and like my interests and that, and all the bond movies, it does sound like it got you into cinema in a way profoundly for me, that will be inception. Yeah. In terms of like the film that I saw on the big screen and being like, holy fuck, they can do that. Like that, that was a kind of like mindset shift for me.

Like from being someone who's watching movies to watching film.

it's like sensory overload. Isn't it? The sound design is incredible. The visuals are so engulfing, it's like an assault on the census, isn't it. And the cinema and someone, someone, one of the comments that were made, referenced inception on the post as well. That was something that someone had mentioned from a filmmaker's point of view.

It's a very like, and actually a lot of Nolan's work. Yeah. We've had a couple of people saying that it was a film that got them to think about filmmaking as a career. And it's interesting because ultimately inception. It is about the filmmaking process. Very likely met the film for Nolan himself. Yeah. I also explained something that's pretty complicated on paper in a really simple, which is interesting because he's tried Christopher.

Nolan's tried to replicate that. And actually I feel like he hasn't hit the mark. Definitely Troy's red has, has, has attempted similar ideas with interstellar and then with tennis actually, there's. Too much. Whereas other films like Dunkirk, obviously don't Kirk, again, it's just a spectacle of a film. It kind of strips it back and it doesn't try to be too clever.

And that sounds like what Oppenheimer his next one's going to be. Yeah. But it's interesting that the section feels like his peak, the inventor of the nuclear bomb. Do you feel like, I think your aid in the sense Penn had, they try to be inceptions there it's in a way it feels like. Interstellar they'd work for me, but I think for very different reasons, I think it was, I dunno for me, a lot of people say that inception is mostly emotional film for me.

That's interstellar. It's connected with. I mean, I always go back to these ones, but inception is like science fiction bond, but the perfect way to do it. Yeah. And I'm just seeing exception, the cinema and the first time that he bends the land, I'd found that really shocking and the frame completely bends and twists and your perspectives are lost.

And I've found that very powerful moment. Whereas I agree. Interstellar made me cry, whereas in inception, Stella when he's stuck behind the bookcase, but my take on it, his best film is still the prestige. Wow. And I get, and that film gets and you know, I've, I've seen people give that, give that film hate. I think the prestige is incredible.

It's such a good film considering the prestige of. It's now Simon, I'm going to give you a one-line synopsis. That's going to make you hate this film. It's about two warring magicians. Now I've sold that terribly, but it's actually, it's brilliant. David Bowie's in it. He plays it. David Bowie plays Nikola Tesla.

Yeah. It's about two magicians in the 18 hundreds and this and this few that they have, but it's, it's fantastic. It's Christian bale and Hugh Jackman. Another, um, comment on. Your post was for, um, into the wild. And that had a massive effect on me. When I first watched it, the themes of like freedom and breaking out of what society want you to do with your life.

I found that such a powerful film that if it changed my life though, but yeah, it's one of the it's it's up there. And the other one I was going to mention for myself was kids. They don't know if I film because I remember one night I was at home alone. I thought it must have been about 12 or so. My mum and dad route, I was probably flicking around on TV, like really late.

And this film to start to draw me in. And it was like really had this sort of dark, exciting energy about it. And I got sucked in and I couldn't sleep the whole night because I found the film so terrifying. I remember that night, my neighbors were having a party and it was a part in the film where it girls raped.

She's basically so out of it and this guy rapes her when she's on the sofa. And I was lying in bed, listening to my neighbors, have this party thinking what's happening in that part. Is it like what's happening in kids? And will I have to go to parties like that when I'm older and it had this really deep effect on me and I never really talked to anyone about it.

I never liked telling my mum and dad or anything. Sat in my head for a long time. So maybe that's something did change. Yeah. Just thinking about it. I mean, I think it's, and it's, I mean, I saw it in its play for him, but I'm sure there is a film version of it, but I saw death of a salesman. Right. So I saw that on stage and, uh, Stratford upon, even in the Shakespeare theater, it was after I had like dropped out of uni and stuff like that.

And it's the only time I've ever watched something and it made me. Holy shit. That's how I'm feeling and so much. So I actually went, I went to try and get into drama school and that I use that monologue and they asked me, why did you pick that? And I was like, because this literally explained this, put into words how I was feeling about a year ago and nothing's ever done that before.

Oh, wow. I was like, blew my mind that play. Yeah. It was incredible. The character in it there, the, you know, the eldest solo and I was like, holy shit, that's me. Like, that's literally how I feel. And I'm sure there's a film version of it. So I can probably throw that in there. It's incredible. What films can do to you when it comes to identification?

Well, it makes you, it, it can make you realize that that was the thing for me, where I didn't realize I was like, holy shit, that's that? That's how I feel. You know, I was like, I hadn't thought about it. And I was like, hang on. If I think that's exactly why I feel the way I feel. And then after that, I was like, it was like a realization validity and your feelings.

My mate said it was so awkward. He's like, I could hear you solving in the theater. Like I was like, shut up. It was a very emotional play. This is a safe space. And I feel like we're going to be having a little. Emotional trust me when we get onto the no time today, conversation, I will actually, when we go into napkins.

Yeah. But no one's on the, and is finally brought to the table. So actually that links into the film, which was the homework to watch later, which is essentially watching a play in, in 1200 burn. Yeah. 12 angry men. So, so we start with some of the community responses. Yeah. Um, I am going to start with my very good friend comedian of cinema, who said I was a two months show when I was 12.

And I'm convinced in dumb, started my depression, the older I got with more viewings, it's turned around completely in my mind. Favorite film of all time. And he's saying that, um, that the meaning of the film has changed as he's got older. Yeah. Yeah. Right now it's just going to say that's a huge thing.

Like the, the, from watching it at the age 12 to watching a 10 years. Just in the, you notice things completely differently. I mean, I just need to watch it. Have you not seen the fantastic Jim Carey? Yeah. It's one of Jeff Carrie's best films. I am going to butcher people's names and just going to read some of the comments without the name.

So I'm really sorry about that. Um, yes. Um, Lord of the rings, I was depressed and self-harming and was seriously considering ending. And then the film showed me that life is worth living. That there's some good in this world and it's worth fighting for, for your friends, for yourself and for the world.

This is beautiful land, uh, showed me that sometimes your heart can be broken in the most beautiful way. It's a heartbreaking ending. I have it on my wall right now. It was, yeah, it got me through some rough, well, it's a relearning as well. Isn't it? I mean, it's it doesn't it doesn't try it. LA does a quite good job in that.

It doesn't try and sugar coat it with, we're just going to have a happy ending and Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone live happily ever after. It's like, yeah, you can love someone and still end things. Yeah. Arrival that came up a few times in the comments. I'm not going to spoil the ending, but when it came out and so the ending of that.

What would they ever choose? Then two years later I had a son. So the movie again and makes the ending so much more crashing. I still think about it from time to time. It's interesting. That is really interesting because I think it goes back to the age, not just, you know, watching things at different ages, but watching things after like different milestones in their life, or even like watching films.

When you're in a relationship or watching films when you're not in a relationship and how kind of, that resonates with you as well. That's really interesting that this person had a son and then it completely changes your opinion of it. Yeah. Because you bring things back to you in a way. Yeah. It just hits home so much harder when you can actually, you know, put yourself in that person's shoes of, I know what that feels like.

It's like, it's like over your life, eat the mass more empathy, connect with more stuff as you go. 'cause. I remember rewatching the eighties film, weird science, and there's a scene where there's boobs in it. But when I watched it as a kid, it never registered. And so like, it just shows that's like taking to what you were just saying to an extreme where, because it's not important to you at that age.

It doesn't go in. Whereas later on in life, different things become important at a certain point in the boy's life. Boom. Well, I don't think I've told Simon this story before, but I used to back in the days of like, Movies off the TV on two legs VCRs, uh, having Goldeneye on recorded off the TV because ITV obviously used to show the bond movies.

Is that the one that you taped save your moment? That's now that was, that was, that was, that was for, I think that was for Bernie and it was only when I bought the DVD about 10 years later, like, I'd say I'd watch, like I've been watching the bond movies since I was a big fight. So golden. I came out when in nineties.

My favorite bond movie. Oh, that's a very different question. They don't need to give me more time on the spring. I find that question relatively easily. I will meet now. I don't find that question easy at all. So I then a couple of years later, I bought golden eye on DBS. Yeah. And I noticed all the scenes that my parents obviously had deemed to Ron tree and I'd stopped the video recording and then recorded it again.

And I had this whole thing of what I thought, I thought the film jumps to another point. And then it was like, Jesus Christ is about 10 minutes. It's really well done in. The court, they weren't weld on edits. This is like, this is like my dad pressing the stop button and then waiting until it goes through and then being like pressing record again, I don't want to, cause it would just automatically jump into an ad break and I'd be like, oh, it must just be that the ads are not unused doesn't mean.

Yeah, exactly. When that was not the case. Moving on. Um, moon has always had a profound effect on me. It was the first film that made me realize how terrified of being alone. I think it's my greatest fear with that in mind, I've seen moon eight times now and it never fails to make me cry Mondays. One of my favorite Saifai films, it's actually the, I want to say that the debut film from Duncan Jones with, uh, yeah, uh, his, um, David Bowie son.

And he's your film is just like literally out of the world, it's gone on to also make Dungeons and dragons just don't do.

Why didn't 180. It was a fantastic film though. And the ending of that, I mean, we can probably do it quite Elvin. No. Okay. Um, the secret life of Walter Mitty, you made me realize life is too short to not make it an adventure. And it's never too late to start leaving. That's right. I not, I've not seen that.

The Ben said, yeah. Okay. I feel like the trailer is. I don't know, it tells you a very different picture. So I would recommend not watching the trailer. Oh, maybe we'll do it afterwards because they're very good trailer, but I feel like it takes away from the actual film. Interesting. Um, life is beautiful and the Shawshank redemption, which just came up a few times, but it saved me at a point in my life by showing me as long as you were.

You fight. And as long as you fight you hope. And so here I am still fighting and hoping we have, yeah, we have poets in this, uh, Simon's favorites, shore girl. So girls, so earlier on Sophie, read out this post, which is why it's Showgirls, because it taught me how to teach for Saatchi. So we had a very big misunderstanding of what Showgirls was not the nineties burlesque dancer film.

She thought it was dream girls, the film starring Beyonce and Jennifer Hudson and Eddie Murphy, which are two. If you go into Showgirls expecting dream girls, you are in for a big shock.

Um, it's a wonderful life. Taught me how much beauty and gratitude I could find in the death of my youthful dreams and aspirations they gave me well, where are we? We have, we can't handle this one. I know. I know. Anyway. The gifts life brought me were more fulfilling than those are you're in for. Oh, okay.

That's like shit. And the final one, which I feel like we should end with this. Uh, Ratatouille tells me that the rats can really cook.

We just went through a lot of heavy quads and like messages from people. I like that. That's a really nice, uh, almost justification when we were talking about earlier about, you know, cinema and people getting back to the cinema is that, you know, anybody who says that movies are just these vapid commercial things that are just massive money pits and that, you know, that's all they are.

Kind of shows you that, you know, there's movies on that list, Lord of the rings, there's 12 academy awards and it just, yeah, it just goes back to, you know, it shows that it's different for everyone and that actually, you know, there's, uh, people connect with different things. Exactly. Depending on where you are in your life, depending on what you've experienced, you know, the person who talked about arrival than having a kid and then that changes it and it's just, yeah.

I've written a rival down on my list of things to watch. Arrival is fantastic. I would, what's it again with you, if you want to, I'm going to the movie night. Cool. I am calling the syrup. Yeah, we'll take a break and we'll be back with the main segment for spoilers for, uh, for 12 angry men. And the thing that we're actually here to where the one that we're here to actually discuss the final scene.

So we'll take a quick break and. Yeah, the rambling will continue the rambling and look at message from our sponsor. Jane. Yeah. Yo, what's up. Y'all want some of this without much further ado. Here we go again. So our very first financing is going to be for 12 angry men. The very first post from my Instagram pays.

So it only feels fitting to kick off the podcast with it. So what is 12 angry men about? Who wants to give the round down? It is a 1957. That's very specific. I love it. Uh, release. And it's about 12 jurors deliberating over. The fate of a 18 year old boy accused of murdering his dad. And it's all set in one room, pretty intense.

This is very interesting from like single cam kind of one shot movies that this actually did it kind of day. I mean, there's cuts in it, but it did it in the fifties. I think for its day, it was probably quite progressive because it covers the different viewpoints of the jurors and covers that different prejudices.

And I think the actual. Premise of the film what's kind of lead to the following scene is that as they do try to reach a unanimous decision, there is one person in the room. One juror I said, do your number eight. I want to say he does cast considerable doubt on elements of the case. And this is how the film begins.

That's how that happens in the first 15 minutes of the film. I don't think we should make a judgment that quickly we should interrogate what we have in front of us, which I feel like is to your point is very interesting. The film was directed by Sidney Lumet. Who's one of my favorite director, Doug, the afternoon, you have a bunch of other films that I don't want to go on a tangent about.

Um, but it's interesting because he's a director that has a very deep interest in. Understanding how individuals can come together to move past corruption, which I feel like that's a common theme among his filmography. And when it comes to that film in particular, what I don't really like is that sometimes it's been passed as courtroom drama, but I do feel like it's much more complex even in the courtroom.

Yeah. Which I feel like get to your point. It's not the right way to talk about it, but courtroom sells, you know, because you have. It's very dense thematically. I found it like watching a play because when I first put it on, I thought, fuck, you know, it's going, gonna be hard work. Even at the beginning, the sound design, it was not really sound the sound of the, if the court is very echo-y and really stress actually for a bit, for, for a good five or 10 minutes, you can't really hear what anyone's saying.

Yeah. Yeah. It sounded like the type of film that my mum used to watch on a Sunday afternoon, like a second world war film. And I was just like, oh yeah. But then I realized that all about. Was going to be used as a device to crank up the tension later on. And they play with loads of clever things like the sound.

Uh, it's obviously very, very hot. So all the guys start sweating, just be like a pressure cooker that like builds and builds and builds and builds until the end, which interestingly, the thing I noticed is that you could see the clear turning point in the films with the fund gets turned off. They close the windows, they turn the light on and then they finally switch on the fan and everybody else starts simmering calming down and down and down, except for.

Number three, who has been just building for the entire film. That's funny that you say, um, it's, it's like watching. So Simon knows this. I did like AMD Ram for years. And the first play I ever did was 12 angry men. Ah, number seven, the one who's obsessed with getting off to the baseball game. And that was her.

That was the first thing I ever did. Can you identify with that weirdly? I mean, I, I'm very invested in this whole idea. Get me out of here. I've got tickets to the game. I mean, probably sounds like something I would say, but, um, but it is definitely, there's definitely elements. It's written almost like the dialogue, especially once I, once I started to frame it as I'm watching a play and everything changed.

The fish or the mind kicks in. And it's all about what they're saying and not the acting, which I found quite wooden at the beginning. Yeah. I think I sent this assignment on the way here. Like Henry Fonda. Who's an amazing actor, you know, under the best of his generation, at least for the, for it much like a play, it feels like he's only getting comfortable the first 15, 20 minutes.

And it's probably did to do with a lot of the way they film it. A lot of it is just shots, like face onto the camera and there is a long. I think they filmed it. I mean, it would make sense. It's something like that. It makes sense to film. Obviously it film it for a couple of weeks, but it makes sense that rather than like a traditional filming where you're filming stuff in different slates and you have different unit jumping from one scene to another, something like that makes sense to do that.

But it feels like, you know, he really only hits his stride. He only really hits us. Right. And when we get to the, like the knife, the knife comes out and he starts, you know, okay. That's when he starts going Jordan, number three, I think. And we obviously we get onto it for the final scene. Yeah. Incredible like for a fee for a film from the fifties.

Yeah. Is incorrect. Like his performance in that is so like the one thing I, so I wrote notes and it, when I watched it and he, so Brando S like, he, he like, he prowls around and he really kind of. And it gets a very physical performance just in the way that he kind of towers over people, even in the way that like even has his trailers pulled a Brady height, go make him look almost taller.

And he kind of towers over people and he never breaks. Like the rest of them are wiping their brow and everything like that. He's the one that brings a story about his son a couple of times. And that's the climates of the ending, ultimately, because the way I saw it anyway, These guys suffering from the worst kind of sin, which is pride.

Yeah. And it's, as you said, it's, he's the hardest to crack. His pride is so hard to get through and ultimately he has like a full 360 in the end. That's like the reason that I've been so stubborn, is there a reason that I actually do not want this kid to have a fair, very big in a way it was, I'm not saying, and that's another conversation.

I'm not saying the kid was innocent. But there was so much evidence to imply that he was not guilty. Yeah, exactly. There's a kind of element. So for me, that was really, really interesting. Um, I had seen it obviously ages ago, which is why I posted about, about it four years ago. And I only watched it recently because I knew we were going to talk about it in the podcast.

I did have very different experiences watching the film now and watching it for years. Because we're focusing on the felon scene. Ultimately, I remember four years ago, I came out of the film thinking, oh, I'm not sure if the ending worked for me, the court, like the exterior courtroom courtroom scene did work.

And for reasons we can talk about, but the climax of like, why did juror number three, the guy we're talking about breaking the end for me, felt unknown. In a way, because I was like, why does he do, why is she saying not guilty? Now? I felt like the payoff, which is the scene itself, like him breaking down his breaking point, as he says, so himself wasn't able to match the effectiveness of the setup and the planting of, well, it feels like it's over very quickly.

And I didn't get it. Like I was like, why are you taking out picture? Like, why take another picture of your kid? Like. And I don't think looking back now, my second rewards, I realize that it's not the fact that seeds were in there. I feel like the planting was done well, but I feel like because we had literally 12 angry men in one room and you have so much information from a dialogue perspective, you feel like on a first watch, you have so much information coming to you that.

I actually don't remember why you're angry, which is like, sign me. Like you haven't watched this film before and you didn't even remember that this guy was actually like the last juror to turn his vote because yeah, I have to say that for me, that wasn't the most impactful moment in the film. It didn't that wasn't the climax for me at all, which is why I'm kind of critical about it because it should have been because he's the last one that kind of breaks down and yeah.

Gets everyone to go back home because he's the last man standing in a way that's like, fuck it. And you have this incredible scene where he kind of breaks down. I feel like to your point, Ben, the performance is amazing. And like that scene is so powerful even though I agree, Simon, it's not the most powerful.

I feel like the old man they're racist, what everyone turns on him, like turning his back on him. I feel like that's incredibly powerful, very theatrical. I said, that's, that's where it goes full. Like thespian play almost like everybody just walks away. Cause it's interesting. You know, when I look at it and you know, you think about your own relationships with your own parents and stuff like that.

And you know, the only difference between his son and that the kid understand is that his son ran away. He protects his relationship with his kid onto the defendant. But I also think he projects, he, it, that also then comes because there's at least at certain points in the film there's relationships to his own father.

And he was his father with a treat him. And it's almost this generational, it's a generational, it's a vicious cycle of these things because there's so much focus on. Now the kid's dad used to beat him up and all that. And, you know, coming from these rough neighborhoods and his whole thing is working, know, you treat your parents with respect.

I would have done that. Or I would've gotten, you know, I would've gotten the slap violin. Yeah. Yeah. His language is very violent. Like the kids, like you wear your heart out. Like I was so aggressive, but he's so aggressive for the whole film. I think he's calm. He's calm for about 10 minutes. And then from there, which interestingly, do you know what, from, from a, from a performance point of view, even though it is, it's incredible, like it's the best performance in the.

You almost wish it built a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah. And especially because in the whole sense of that, the rooms are pressure cooker and everything that's going on. It's getting hot, it's getting sweaty. All the men are like pressure cookers as well that have their individual moments where they go off.

Yeah. Except his is just, he is, he is already a breaking point where yeah. Yeah. And actually I wouldn't, I love to see it to see an actor do it as like from a, from a play perspective, which is great because you can see these things on stage as to how people do Shakespeare now, how you interpret characters differently.

I'd love to see that character with like a slower build that it builds up and open the aggression isn't automatically there because he comes in as this quite like reserved man. He's trying to sell himself to the advertising guy. He's trying to give them his card and everything, but then automatically he just snaps.

I think perhaps it's. Script feels quite linear. And if, if they had. Parts of the sky, his explosion earlier on and got you to buy into the hint towards it. That would have led to a better, I was thinking about this. If, what if you made 12 angry? Like if 12 angry men was written today of like, how would it be done in the modern cinema?

It'd probably be about half an hour longer. It would probably be to right. We'd have flashbacks to the jurors lives. We'd see his, the time that he slapped his son. And we probably wouldn't find out if they've all been guilty or not, you know, you'd end up, you'd get to the end and it will be a thing of like, they just walk out.

You don't actually see what the final, we don't even see him say not guilty. We just see a breakdown and then they leave. And that would be it because in modern cinema, we don't really eat. Now. There's, there's so much today that's given, unlike the cliffhanger right now, or like the suspenseful ending, you know, Seven we were talking about earlier and then you can make a sequel.

It's interesting because we talk about the final scene and because it does feel like a one take film almost because it's a single setting film. It's hard to say what is the found scene? And I think technically it is the exterior courtroom scene where they go out and they tell each other their names, which the thing is very sweet.

But yeah, leading up to that, you have the breaking point of your number three, that goes on a tantrum, really? And then he's like not guilty, not guilty, not guilty. And then it's, the transition is very quiet because I feel like, you know, the saying some things are better left unsaid. There is no point in even arguing.

I feel like everyone in the room, God, where he was coming from and all of that shame that was projected onto the table, he had a little shaming, Henry Fonda putting his coat on him. It like, even just the look he gives them. He's clearly like, it's just, I, I paid him. I pity that I pity that you were, you were become this, that you would feel, he even says it to him.

How's it like a lot of it is a lot of the language between them too is, you know, how could you be this kind of person? How could you do that? And how could you feel this way? And that's really strikes at the heart of what the film is trying to say is, well, in situations like this personal prejudice has to be taken out of the room and you have to look at these things logically and actually the journey for every man in that room is overcoming that of the baggage that I brought into the room and then leaving it at the door because it's clearly a thing of just like, I like it's, there's no animosity at the end of the film, even though juror number three goes to hit a mobile.

And then there's that brilliant scene where they're recreating the stabbing scene. And even just, he goes, he goes, put winds up the gas. Nobody's, nobody's getting hurt here, but there's definitely something powerful in the idea that we don't know their names and that the only two people who we get names from the.

Are the two and actually maybe not even powerful, you know, Sophie, we were talking with us, you were talking with this 400 with the idea of Henry Fonda wearing Weiss because in westerns, you know, with the only way you get in black and white, the only way you can distinguish between a good guy and a bad guy is by making them wear different colors.

So like guys always wore black. Coco's always want to waste, you know, this writing in thing. The fact that he's the only one who gets a name apart from, I mean, the other guy, obviously the protagonists hero, whatever, because everyone loves a hero. Everyone's a central character. My issue with. The symbolism behind him wearing a white coat and the rest of the jurors wearing a black coat, is it kind of indicates that we need a white Knight.

We need a perfect moralist. We need a Saint in order to be able to get to the truth. And I'm coming from the perspective where I do feel like everyone has good. And compassion and kindness in them. And you shouldn't have to put someone on a white horse to come save the, like, I know the evil and like, yeah, the, the immoral people, I just felt like that was unnecessary.

And there is this quote from, uh, I lost it at the movies, which is one of my favorite books on CNN. We'd say something along the lines of theatricality, doesn't always mean dramatic strength. I'm paraphrasing, but it's about like, what was the intention of the director? Like, because sometimes you're being overly theatrical and sometimes it does help bring the story to the front and like move the story forward.

And sometimes it has meaning and other times. And like flashing, like someone's read a book on how to make a movie and it's like, oh, the good guy wears white. And the white guy for me, that was an unnecessary move. Even though I don't consider myself to be a minimalist in my life. When it comes to films, I kind of take a much more practical approach.

If it doesn't need to be on camera, cut it. And it's like, for me, it would be much more impactful if it is blended with red, but where I want to go back to, which I think we can wrap up with that. One is the actual final scene with a courtroom steps. What did you make from that? Well, you know, it's interesting though, because as I said, I think there's, there's definitely probably something in the kind of power behind the name and also the anonymity of a jewelry or jewelry room.

And do these people feel like they could say all of these things because they don't have a name, you know, you're, you know, it's very easy to say all these things when no one knows who you are. And it's also then something that has been brought on in a lot of other films. The one that always jumps out to me is Larry.

Again, the final scene of layer cake is Daniel Craig turning to the camera and going, you don't even know my name, even though this whole film we've been hearing about these characters, you want only get to the end, you go, oh crap. I didn't actually know your name. You know, they could have even done something similar in that.

But then, you know, to me, it feels like their taste, something clearly there to make a statement of the anonymity of majority room and you know, not having a name and how much power is kind of in that. And the fact that, again, it is the white Knight who was riding away. We know who he is. I think the effect of that scene on the courtroom steps when they exchange names is to diffuse the tension.

That's just being built up in the proceeding scene where the guy has the meltdowns grounding. Yeah. So it's kind of like the film lands there. Yeah. Um, and it, they could've left it more cliffhanger in more shocking, but it was nice the way that everyone was brought back down to earth. Well, as I said, I feel like it, and I taught at the time.

I feel like if you made that film today, that's probably cliff more hungry, right? Yeah. And I do feel like the directional decision to remove the names from the equation when you're, when they are in the room is because at the end of the day, one of the themes that are addressed in the film is democracy.

And the lack of names kind of implies. Democracy is not about the individual, right? It's about the decision that needs to be made by a group of people, the collective right. And collected doesn't have a name like the jurors, but that's what, that's all you need. So then number aspect is like practical, just address each other.

So for them to step out there and kind of be like, Hey, because when I accused my name, it's I just assignment, it's very grounding and it kind of humanizes them because we saw. The ugliest side of a lot of them, that room. And when they make the, I don't wanna say the right decision, but they make a decision.

That's the one that's in the majority, they go outside and they're like, yeah, I actually have a name. And it kind of puts a face to the name. And it's, it makes you feel like. I don't know for me anyway, it made me identify with everyone because I do have biases. I do have like things that I don't want to admit and like seeing myself in these, like some of these dialogues, it was very illuminating and just be able to step out there and be like, and my name is

You know, it's like AA gotta like admitting the guilt and just putting myself out there and being human. It gives you faith that everyone does have critical faculties. And that guy, Henry Fonda's character extracted them one by one from those jurors. But the way I saw it was that with regards to the jurors, not being given names from the beginning is that they were essentially like a pack of 11 people that all decided that there were 11 of them that said this guy's guilty.

And they were like this pack. I hadn't really thought it through. And then over time they then regain their identities one by one, as, as, uh, Henry Fonda drew it out of them. And then they got their names back by the end. I mean, it's a, it's a huge, I mean, even like in today's society, the idea of unconscious biases is such a huge thing.

And this puts this, you know, the film pots on unconscious biases in the most critical of scenarios. Well, it's a conscious bias as well because they're flat out racist. I'm not a racist. Yeah. One of the guys is like, well, if we don't convict him now, you'll just do it. It's something else bad. So you might as well just electric heat him.

Now that was one of the arguments. Yeah. It'd be interesting to speak with someone who's much older about this film, because for us, we don't know the context of the time in which he was released so well. And I suspect that this film probably was quite progressive in its day. Considering the topics that they're addressing and the ending, how they all get through these prejudices prejudice, like the year before there was still segregated buses in America, between black and white.

So think of that. Imagine that film being released, covering those topics and that was still happening. Very, yeah. Yeah. Very pretty massive. Cool. So any final thoughts on the final scene? I love the film. I completely forgot. Like it's one of those ones that, so the ending works for you. The ending works for me.

Yeah. I mean, as I say, it could have ended in other ways in which you don't get a verdict or we just see them all walkable for even more of a white Knight riding off into the sunset type of thing. But actually, as you say, Simon, they just go down it and that's it. They just go that's it. They don't, they don't feel that there's no need.

There's no need to drag it out like that. You know, you could have easily made that final scene on the steps, like a 10 minute conversation between jurors eight or nine, 10 of it, or eight and nine about the case. And especially the fact that, you know, the, even after that, the last person you see walking down the steps is three is the final one to come out.

The white Knight runs away. And the last thing you see is him going down the steps. I think he even turns back and looks at the. And then that's it. Yeah. Anything else would have, uh, you know, you definitely could have had it that they prolong that scene in some way, but actually it kind of sits quite nicely, as you say, as a grounding moment for everything and, uh, stepping out of that pressure cooker into, okay.

Back to reality of who we are as people and not just. Cool. Uh, I'm calling this a wrap. Thank you for joining me, Ben and Simon. I hope we don't get canceled on day one. I feel like that's um, yeah, I'm looking forward to be doing this with you every other week. Yeah. Right. We're doing this right. We're committed.

We're committed. We're doing what's happening. Um, so that's a show people. That's a show. Thank you for listening to that final scene. Join us every other Wednesday for. Iconic and not so iconic financings in TV and film history. Along with recommendations and the occasional philosophical rabbit hole is, I feel like we're going to get to eventually, if you like, what you just heard, please subscribe to wherever you're listening to your podcast.

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